Formula 1 - 2013 Season

[jimbo75]

We'll probably never see the likes of 2012 again, with 6 champions on the grid.

Realistically the only driver likely to become first time champion is Perez, and only if McLaren are that much quicker than the Red Bull. You could probably make a case for Massa and Rosberg, but even if they have the fastest car they are likely to be beaten by their champion team mates.

 

[Silent_Buddha]

But let's be realistic for a bit, nostalgia aside, do lists like those really make sense? It's impossible to compare a current gen driver with a fangio gen driver. In some ways it would even be hard to compare a 90's driver to the current drivers.

It depends, drivers of today require less skill than drivers of Fangio or even Senna's era. And while you occasionally hard constructor's cars which dominated back then, it generally wasn't for a lengthy period of time.

Hence, Senna often had to win races with a car that was significantly worse than the top cars of some seasons. Then again, back then, that was far more possible as driver skill was far more important with cars being on the ragged edge of performance and grip.

Now with all the rules and regulations trying to make things "safer," you lose that dangerous edge that depended on a driver being truly great.

I still love watching old races where the cars are sliding all over the track. Modern day F1 racing is rather boring in comparison.

I'd love to see how Vettel, Hamilton, or Alonso would handle a car where the back end regularly breaks loose due to loss of grip from trying to be the fastest person around a lap. And then do that for an entire season with other drivers trying to cope with the same situations. Just watch some of Senna's races. His control is so beautiful it brings tears to my eyes. Noone of his era or this one came close to being able to keep his car on the very edge of performance without crashing as he was.

Probably why, it's almost universal among F1 drivers past and present to proclaim Senna as the best F1 driver ever despite his shortened career.

Regards,
SB

 

[DJ12]

I think it's obvious which drivers would be successful in other eras by the way they set up their cars.

For example.Hamilton sets his car up so it's always on the edge so he would have done OK in an era where cars slided about more, as to would Schumacher.

 

[UniversalTruth]

It depends, drivers of today require less skill than drivers of Fangio or even Senna's era. And while you occasionally hard constructor's cars which dominated back then, it generally wasn't for a lengthy period of time.

Hence, Senna often had to win races with a car that was significantly worse than the top cars of some seasons. Then again, back then, that was far more possible as driver skill was far more important with cars being on the ragged edge of performance and grip.

Now with all the rules and regulations trying to make things "safer," you lose that dangerous edge that depended on a driver being truly great.

I still love watching old races where the cars are sliding all over the track. Modern day F1 racing is rather boring in comparison.

I'd love to see how Vettel, Hamilton, or Alonso would handle a car where the back end regularly breaks loose due to loss of grip from trying to be the fastest person around a lap. And then do that for an entire season with other drivers trying to cope with the same situations. Just watch some of Senna's races. His control is so beautiful it brings tears to my eyes. Noone of his era or this one came close to being able to keep his car on the very edge of performance without crashing as he was.

Probably why, it's almost universal among F1 drivers past and present to proclaim Senna as the best F1 driver ever despite his shortened career.

Regards,
SB

Usually people have the unpleasant "quality" to appreciate other people or things only after losing them (sometimes forever). So, I guess this is exactly the case here too.

 

[Kaotik]

I'd love to see how Vettel, Hamilton, or Alonso would handle a car where the back end regularly breaks loose due to loss of grip from trying to be the fastest person around a lap. And then do that for an entire season with other drivers trying to cope with the same situations. Just watch some of Senna's races. His control is so beautiful it brings tears to my eyes. Noone of his era or this one came close to being able to keep his car on the very edge of performance without crashing as he was.

I'd reckon Kimi would do great with such car, not only due what he learned in rally, but just the incredible reflexes he has shown before and last season (even BBC & Sky people have been impressed as hell of how fast his hands move to correct the car)

 

[AlphaWolf]

I guarantee every one of the top drivers has 'incredible' reflexes. And no one is ever going to decide the debate of who were/are the best drivers ever. What Senna was doing with the car he was driving may not have translated well to today cars, his skill set may not have been as useful. There is just no way to know. I hope this discussion isn't going to continue throughout the 2013 season.

 

[Billy Idol]

But let's be realistic for a bit, nostalgia aside, do lists like those really make sense? It's impossible to compare a current gen driver with a fangio gen driver. In some ways it would even be hard to compare a 90's driver to the current drivers.

I agree, it is complete bullshit. Doesn't make any sense. All people really do is talking out of their ass and position their own favorite...it is like those rankings in boxing...muhammed ali, greatest boxer of all yadda yadda yadda...

 

[RobertR1]

I agree, it is complete bullshit. Doesn't make any sense. All people really do is talking out of their ass and position their own favorite...it is like those rankings in boxing...muhammed ali, greatest boxer of all yadda yadda yadda...

Boxing is quite a bit different.....Ali's skillset would serve him well today. Just as Floyd's skillset would hold up well against past fighters.

 

[jimbo75]

Some drivers just stand out by a mile even when they have what is clearly the fastest car. Drivers like Clark, who lapped the entire field in the rain at Spa after starting well down the grid or Stewart who lapped the entire field twice in Spain. Who can forget Senna in the rain at Donington Park in '93, or at Monaco?

It's not about comparing drivers and eras so much as looking at the drivers and just knowing that they'd stand out in any era. The likes of Hakkinen or even triple winners like Lauda, Piquet and Vettel do not have these incredible performances behind them that makes everybody realise that they are beyond special. That's why the same drivers are nearly always at the very top places in these lists, no matter who is making them. I don't think I've ever seen a top 5 list without Senna, Schumacher, Fangio, Clark and Prost making up the places in some fashion - and it's pretty hard to argue with any of them.

 

[Davros]

I guarantee every one of the top drivers has 'incredible' reflexes.

I guarantee that they dont...
clarkson did a program about what makes some people winners and he tested his reflexes against Schumacher and they were the same.
Whats actually happening is the top guys are picking up subtle clues that enable them to react a head of time. Take for example (and clarkson did this with greg rusedski and his trainer who was much older than clarkson) the trainer was able to return rusedski's serves (he held the record at one point in time at 149mph) while jc couldnt.
It wasnt the the trainer had faster reflexes, it was that he was able to pick up on clues like how rusedski varied his stance, where he looked, how far back he moved the racket ect that allowed him to guess where the serve would go and start moving into position even before the ball was hit.

 

[RobertR1]

I guarantee that they dont...
clarkson did a program about what makes some people winners and he tested his reflexes against Schumacher and they were the same.
Whats actually happening is the top guys are picking up subtle clues that enable them to react a head of time. Take for example (and clarkson did this with greg rusedski and his trainer who was much older than clarkson) the trainer was able to return rusedski's serves (he held the record at one point in time at 149mph) while jc couldnt.
It wasnt the the trainer had faster reflexes, it was that he was able to pick up on clues like how rusedski varied his stance, where he looked, how far back he moved the racket ect that allowed him to guess where the serve would go and start moving into position even before the ball was hit.

It's the ability to recognize and translate the feedback that makes them unique, not reaction time.

 

[tongue_of_colicab]

That's why the same drivers are nearly always at the very top places in these lists, no matter who is making them. I don't think I've ever seen a top 5 list without Senna, Schumacher, Fangio, Clark and Prost making up the places in some fashion - and it's pretty hard to argue with any of them.

Because if you don't put up those names people will call you an idiot.

But a lot of those people, I doubt they've even seen fangio race, or watched a lot of footage of him racing. He's just there because every puts him there.

Reality is that he was good in his era, but could you really compare him to today's drivers? He'd just be a slightly fat, out of shape bloke. Assuming he can even get a modern F1 car off the line, he wouldnt manage more than a couple of laps. OTOH all current F1 drivers could drive around in his cars all day.

Even if you would just compare skill level, can you really do that? Just take a look at football, watch the old matches with people like Cruijf, who every knows and thinks is one of the best, if now the best player. Now compare that to modern matches and even in a average match you will see that the speed of the game etc is a lot higher. So would one of the old all time greats still perform as well in the modern game?

 

[Billy Idol]

Because if you don't put up those names people will call you an idiot.

But a lot of those people, I doubt they've even seen fangio race, or watched a lot of footage of him racing. He's just there because every puts him there.

Reality is that he was good in his era, but could you really compare him to today's drivers? He'd just be a slightly fat, out of shape bloke. Assuming he can even get a modern F1 car off the line, he wouldnt manage more than a couple of laps. OTOH all current F1 drivers could drive around in his cars all day.

Even if you would just compare skill level, can you really do that? Just take a look at football, watch the old matches with people like Cruijf, who every knows and thinks is one of the best, if now the best player. Now compare that to modern matches and even in a average match you will see that the speed of the game etc is a lot higher. So would one of the old all time greats still perform as well in the modern game?

Exactly what I think as well. No comparison possible. Every sport gets more professional over time, especially the training methods. People are way more athletic. The sports often have changed, not only with respect to actual rules, but with respect to strategy as well. And don't forget that a modern sports man/woman is tuned by heavy use of doping not available back in the years.

Some years ago, when Lauda was promoted to team chef of the Jaguar racing team, he tried out the new cars, as he wanted to know how it feels like driving them to be a better teamchef (pure PR). Before trying out himself, he claimed in german TV that a monkey can drive those new F1 cars (it was the time with all different ways of driving assists. The time with launch control, ABS and ASR). Actually it turned out that he heavily oversteered the car and throw it off the track...but at least he admitted in TV the he is the biggest monkey of all...

 

[jimbo75]

Obviously you have to factor in the changes from era to era and "normalise" it in your brains.

Fangio might have been a fat 39 year old but he was a fat 39 year old who beat all the fitter and younger guys. If anything that proves he was an absolute master in a racing car. Obviously he wouldn't get away with it now, but if you put the current guys back into the 50's - take away all their training and toys - how good would they be?

 

[tongue_of_colicab]

So somehow we have to measure natural ability. That's impossible and that's exactly why those lists don't work. Atleat not when comparing 6 decades of drivers.

 

[jimbo75]

I agree it's always going to be speculative at best. I think most of them just look at who was most dominant in their era then look at the other factors surrounding their careers.

Schumacher for example is without doubt an incredible driver but his legacy is lessened somewhat due to his position as #1 driver in the fastest car for many of his championships. His questionable practice of attempting to drive his nearest challengers off the track doesn't help either, neither did his failed comeback. All of that adds up and he can't really be considered as the greatest because of it, regardless of his 7 championships.

Vettel is currently going through a similar "problem" in having the fastest car and #1 driver postion. Outside of his fans, it's unlikely he'll ever be regarded as the greatest until he proves himself in something that isn't a Red Bull.

Fangio won 4 WC's with 4 different cars in 4 years, Senna was beyond brilliant, Clark was phenomenal in everything he raced in. The current bunch have got an awful lot to live up to before they break into the top 3-4 positions. Alonso would have cemented himself as a true great by winning this year, but it didn't happen. Hamilton might be able to become a true great by winning in the Mercedes - so long as it's fast enough but not fastest. In many ways to be a regarded as a great these days you have to prove yourself in a slower car - it's not exactly fair but that's how it's going. They have to do something special, something that stands out.

 

[tongue_of_colicab]

See that is what I mean. Nostalgia and perspective are what make up those lists.

For example why would Schumachers legacy be less because of his #1 position? This is completely normal and happens all the time. You don't say this about Fangio while his teammate gave him his car during a race so he could go on! Situation is a bit different but in teams with a clearly faster driver there is always a #1.

Or why should his car matter that much? Isn't he one of the latest drivers to win a WDC at different teams? Not to mention that when he went to Ferrari the team wasnt that great. He was part of what made Ferrari so succeful.

Also, why not mention Fangio here? He won with Alfa, Ferrari, Maserati and Mercedes. He pretty much won with the at that time superior teams.

Or why should Schumachers legacy be lessend because he drive his competitors off the track while Senna did exactly the same! Yet nobody ever mentions that when they talk about Senna.

 

[Silent_Buddha]

Or why should his car matter that much? Isn't he one of the latest drivers to win a WDC at different teams? Not to mention that when he went to Ferrari the team wasnt that great. He was part of what made Ferrari so succeful.

Sure he was a part of it, but the smaller part, IMO. Much of the engineering brains followed him to Ferrari from Benetton. That combined with Ferrari's resources is what really made him dominant through most of his career.

Also, why not mention Fangio here? He won with Alfa, Ferrari, Maserati and Mercedes. He pretty much won with the at that time superior teams.

That's certainly possible, and one of the reasons Senna is generally ranked higher. Senna often won with cars that were massively inferior to the competition. In 1993 he came in second in the Driver's championship despite using a Ford V8 that was incredibly underpowered compared to the dominant Renault V10 for example. Had McLaren been able to secure the use of the Renault engine, there's no doubt he would have dominated that season and the next.

Or why should Schumachers legacy be lessend because he drive his competitors off the track while Senna did exactly the same! Yet nobody ever mentions that when they talk about Senna.

You should take a look at the F1 political landscape at the time where then F1 boss, Jean-Marie Balestre, did everything he could to sabotage Senna in favor of his pet driver Alain Prost. Which culminated in that infamous crash in 1990. There's a decent short summary of it on Wikipedia. That summary is only with regards to that one race. The animosity that Belestre had towards Senna went back quite a few years.

Probably another reason Senna ranks at the top. I don't think any other top driver in F1 history has faced as much opposition from the F1 boss as Senna did. He easily would have had more driver's championships if not for Belestre's meddling.

Regards,
SB

 

[Dave Baumann]

So, same old boring shite for 2014 too.

None of this bollocks reduces costs, if anything it increases it as the designers are working far harder to find downforce than they would if there were less restrictions.

No one has so much as broken a toe nail for years, so lets loosen some of the reins and let them innovate again.

I think this will still be a big aero change for them anyway. Packaging of the engines is going to force some fairly major changes at the back end of the cars, and with smaller combustion elements and more turbo power the effects of the "coanda" exhaust may well be diminished.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/formula1/20640255

Fairly good article looking into the rule canges for 2014 and why the aero tweaks were made. Interesting that they have changed where the exhaust exits in 2014.

 

[jimbo75]

Grosjean remains at Lotus as I expected - http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/formula1/20762327