Your right, the graphs show that lap times were very similar, therefore shouldn't we conclude that fuel levels were very similar and if Hamilton needed to maintain a certain pace to finish didn't Rosberg also have to maintain that pace ?
Formula 1 - 2013 Season
- Thread starter Dave Baumann
- Start date
Your right, the graphs show that lap times were very similar, therefore shouldn't we conclude that fuel levels were very similar and if Hamilton needed to maintain a certain pace to finish didn't Rosberg also have to maintain that pace ?
You would except that they never told that to rosberg until very late. How fast you're lapping doesn't tell the whole story of fuel consumption.
jimbo he was doing high power settings since the 1st stop or so, halfway through he was told to start saving fuel. Yes, at times he was closer to Red Bull(s) than Rosberg was to him, but the differences weren't big in any sense.
And again, why should Rosberg be punished for having more successful tactic?
Lap times and fuel consumption aren't directly related, you can have higher consumption while losing (or not gaining any) in lap times due various factors. Hamilton "burned" his fuel on the first half of the race, Rosberg didn't - it's possible that Rosberg was starting to get a bit low in the end, too, but nowhere near as low as Hamilton was (who was told to be extra saving on the fuel for the last lap(s), sounding like they weren't even sure he'd make it to finishline with enough fuel for the required sample)
And again, why should Rosberg be punished for having more successful tactic?
Lap times and fuel consumption aren't directly related, you can have higher consumption while losing (or not gaining any) in lap times due various factors. Hamilton "burned" his fuel on the first half of the race, Rosberg didn't - it's possible that Rosberg was starting to get a bit low in the end, too, but nowhere near as low as Hamilton was (who was told to be extra saving on the fuel for the last lap(s), sounding like they weren't even sure he'd make it to finishline with enough fuel for the required sample)
He shouldn't have been, I've said that a million times already. I also believe that Hamilton shouldn't be punished for the team underfueling him however. There's no doubt that Rosberg lost out more but I blame the team for compromising both of their races.
Based on what did they underfuel Hamilton? He said himself that he burned too much fuel
If they had given him more fuel he would have been slower as well. I can see the logic of the team not wanting to punish the drivers for a strategy they asked him to pursue.
I've never had an issue with team orders. And with constructors points being so important the teams would be silly not to use them. The trick might be getting a driver to listen as apparently every team doesn't have the same success with that.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/formula1/21924821
Hamilton says there wasn't enough fuel in the car. I believe Brawn also stated something similar too, or what he said was that the team had "heavier than expected fuel consumption".
Obviously there wasn't enough fuel what whatever they were trying so not having enough fuel is a given. Hamilton did say he burned too much as well but he also was in the position to push very hard and take Vettel, albeit for a couple of laps only.
We really don't know who's fault it was - surely the team can tell if he'd gone overboard though? Surely it's their job to slow him down, but by Brawn's comments they were taken by surprise at just how bad the consumption was.
For me it's not exactly rocket science though - if you're following a faster car (then closing and passing), then you're doing something different. Hamilton had to use more fuel to do that and the team let him do it - it just seemed to be a bit more than they had.
Had Hamilton had more fuel in the car then what would have been different? He'd probably have maintained a 4 second gap to Vettel and saved his tyres. He might even have had a better race because of that - that's why i'm not buying the reasoning that because he burned more fuel or had less to start with, he wasn't as fast. I think the tyre situation being as it is, is more of a factor right now.
Hamilton says there wasn't enough fuel in the car. I believe Brawn also stated something similar too, or what he said was that the team had "heavier than expected fuel consumption".
Obviously there wasn't enough fuel what whatever they were trying so not having enough fuel is a given. Hamilton did say he burned too much as well but he also was in the position to push very hard and take Vettel, albeit for a couple of laps only.
We really don't know who's fault it was - surely the team can tell if he'd gone overboard though? Surely it's their job to slow him down, but by Brawn's comments they were taken by surprise at just how bad the consumption was.
For me it's not exactly rocket science though - if you're following a faster car (then closing and passing), then you're doing something different. Hamilton had to use more fuel to do that and the team let him do it - it just seemed to be a bit more than they had.
Had Hamilton had more fuel in the car then what would have been different? He'd probably have maintained a 4 second gap to Vettel and saved his tyres. He might even have had a better race because of that - that's why i'm not buying the reasoning that because he burned more fuel or had less to start with, he wasn't as fast. I think the tyre situation being as it is, is more of a factor right now.
Then how come they were supposedly both "on the fuel edge", something just doesn't add up.
Both were underfueled for the race pace but Hamilton clearly was in much worse shape because he pushed harder. It seems really simple to work that out Kaotik, based on the gap distances between drivers and the fact the Hamilton even managed to pass Vettel by putting in some very fast laps. Too fast, clearly...but what else was he supposed to do? You tell Hamilton to push and that's exactly what he'll do - he's not gonna say "how much fuel do i have to save". You expect the team to know the numbers.
This is a Merc problem, not a Hamilton problem. Also come on - If you were Rosberg would you want to see the fuel consumption numbers at the end? If Brawn is lying about it then that's just going to piss-off Rosberg something fierce (even more than he already is).
This is a Merc problem, not a Hamilton problem. Also come on - If you were Rosberg would you want to see the fuel consumption numbers at the end? If Brawn is lying about it then that's just going to piss-off Rosberg something fierce (even more than he already is).
Read the Autosport link. They were both told to dial back, and although Rosberg was as critcal at the point he was able to pass, he still would have had to dial back later on meaning he'd be unable to challenge Red Bull anyway.
It's hard to take what he's saying at face value when they didn't pass that information to rosberg until much later. I'm not suggesting they should have let Rosberg pass, he wasn't going to catch red bull anyway. I do think if they had not been on the same team Rosberg finishes 3rd (Hamilton agrees).
I've been thinking about that point alphawolf - and even though I don't believe it it might be possible that Brawn just didn't want to broadcast to the other teams that their pace was down to a low-fueling strategy.
With one car, you can always say it's the driver or it was because he was forced to push too hard at certain points. It doesn't look all that good when both drivers are told to dial the consumption way down half-way through the race.
Whatever it was, Rosberg will know the reason for it now as he will surely have the whole data in front of him. I just can't see Brawn outright lying over it, it's far more likely that Rosberg was on the edge (but obviously not nearly as bad as Hamilton). That just seems pretty logical to me.
With one car, you can always say it's the driver or it was because he was forced to push too hard at certain points. It doesn't look all that good when both drivers are told to dial the consumption way down half-way through the race.
Whatever it was, Rosberg will know the reason for it now as he will surely have the whole data in front of him. I just can't see Brawn outright lying over it, it's far more likely that Rosberg was on the edge (but obviously not nearly as bad as Hamilton). That just seems pretty logical to me.
I don't think Red Bull will cut off their nose to spite their face.
If Red Bull wants to really teach Vettel a lesson they should just short his fuel and see if he listens when they tell him he's low.
Looking at the flip side, what if Vettel needs those extra 7 points to win another WDC at the end of the season?
The question really is moot as Vettel really embarrassed Redbull and Mark Webber made a meal of it (quite rightly so too!)
With regards to this Hamilton and Rosberg thread which I guess will go on until China (!!), Hamilton used more fuel than Rosberg, both cars were conserving fuel at the end - same as the cars ahead. Hamilton at one point towards the end asked Brawn if he should just let Rosberg pass him and Brawn responded (paraphrasing), "you do what I tell you to do when I tell you to do it. Hold your positions".
The fact that both Rosberg and Hamilton followed team instructions meant the issue is now over as far as the team is concerned. It is not impossible for a driver to be quicker and smarter at a race than his team mate and vice versa, why are we even arguing that?! Hamilton even said Rosberg drove a smarter race than he did. Again what exactly are we arguing about? Senna was not always faster than Prost!
Has anyone mentioned the fact that Hamilton lost approximately 6 seconds when he pitted in the wrong garage? That would have meant he may have come out ahead of Vettel at one stage and Rosberg was closer to him.
Personally, I am looking forward to see how Redbull are going to deal with Vettel. If he really doesn't want to follow team orders when they are against him and the team are not happy about that then they need to lay the law down.
The question really is moot as Vettel really embarrassed Redbull and Mark Webber made a meal of it (quite rightly so too!)
With regards to this Hamilton and Rosberg thread which I guess will go on until China (!!), Hamilton used more fuel than Rosberg, both cars were conserving fuel at the end - same as the cars ahead. Hamilton at one point towards the end asked Brawn if he should just let Rosberg pass him and Brawn responded (paraphrasing), "you do what I tell you to do when I tell you to do it. Hold your positions".
The fact that both Rosberg and Hamilton followed team instructions meant the issue is now over as far as the team is concerned. It is not impossible for a driver to be quicker and smarter at a race than his team mate and vice versa, why are we even arguing that?! Hamilton even said Rosberg drove a smarter race than he did. Again what exactly are we arguing about? Senna was not always faster than Prost!
Has anyone mentioned the fact that Hamilton lost approximately 6 seconds when he pitted in the wrong garage? That would have meant he may have come out ahead of Vettel at one stage and Rosberg was closer to him.
Personally, I am looking forward to see how Redbull are going to deal with Vettel. If he really doesn't want to follow team orders when they are against him and the team are not happy about that then they need to lay the law down.
I believe the quote from Brawn is that, they did not anticipate the pace of the race to be as quick as it was. That basically means, no safety car, rain cleared very quickly and they were challenging at one point for the front two places, i.e. trying to keep up with Webber and Vettel.
