Formula 1 - 2013 Season

[Tahir2]

I don't believe that Webber was in any coast home mode during the battle. They were said to go into saving mode after the final stops and their battle started immediately when Webber came out of the pits. I believe that if Webber had lowered the settings, he cranked them right back up when he saw that Vettel is trying to get him. Vettel couldn't even pass him with DRS on the main straight so I have hard time believing his car would have had a serious power advantage.

He was in "coast mode" as stated by numerous websites, Christian Horner himself and Mark Webber.

Vettel got the pass even though being told to hold positions a couple of times. Lucky for Redbull and their reputation Webber did not retaliate by taking Vettel out which is probably what someone like Senna would have done.
Vettel has lost a major chunk of respect with the majority of fans, critics and experts. Especially after watching his performance on the podium when Martin Brundle interviewed him he was clearly delusional, smug beyond belief and didn't quite realise the shit storm about to hit him. I would have lol'd but I felt too disgusted to be honest.

 

[DuckThor Evil]

He was in "coast mode" as stated by numerous websites, Christian Horner himself and Mark Webber.

I've probably seen all the same videos and interviews you have, none of them have said that Webber stayed in "coast mode", only that it was planned and agreed prior to race to take place after the final pit stops. I've seen one where Webber said he turned down the power, but I want to hear whether he kept it down.

Vettel got the pass even though being told to hold positions a couple of times.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8xppm9tzXc8&feature=youtu.be

Radio traffic from the race, skip to around 14.45 and onwards. Quote me those couple of times, where he was told. He was told things like. "Seb be careful" "Seb this is silly" and "use the Kers normally not overtake mode" Those clearly aren't nearly as straightforward as what Brawn said.

Vettel has lost a major chunk of respect with the majority of fans, critics and experts. Especially after watching his performance on the podium when Martin Brundle interviewed him he was clearly delusional, smug beyond belief and didn't quite realise the shit storm about to hit him. I would have lol'd but I felt too disgusted to be honest.

Perhaps in the UK, if even there. At the end of the day Schumacher had tons of respect and Vettel has quite a bit to go to reach those dark side points. More like storm in a tea cup, that'll go away as fast as it erupted. Webber is rightly pissed, others need to take note and realize that in order to beat Vettel, you'll have to play hard.

 

[Tahir2]

Maybe it is because English is not his native tongue but those messages are quite clear to me. Clearly means do not attack for the lead - however it is open to interpretation if you have your own agenda.

Have to admit Brawn was a lot clearer and that is an issue Christian Horner should improve upon.

Latest BBC article - Webber's dad criticises Vettel.

And what it shows is that Vettel is ruthless and unsportsmanlike. Whether this is accurate due to the mixed messages he got the I suspect Redbull team will clear up internally.

Edit:
And in the UK all the broadsheets (Guardian and The Times) attacked Vettel's conduct but some did provide counter articles as well - a lot of websites I visit have also criticised Vettel and are supportive of Webber including, Brundle, Coulthard (least critical and sees it from a driver perspective), Benson, Humphreys, Saward etc etc. General feeling, Vettel lost a few points in the popularity contest and Redbull is a bit of a mess when it comes to the Webber\Vettel rivalry. A lot of people feel that Redbull have not been as supportive of Webber and the 2010 season was Webber's but the team almost certainly conspired against him.

 

[DuckThor Evil]

Yep I have already agreed that it was a dickish move by Vettel, but these things go away quickly. I'm sure Webber will keep it in mind, but the newspapers will soon have something else to write.

 

[Dave Baumann]

FYI, for those that don't have a channel that support the info "F1PitRadio" is a useful twitter feed to follow during the race. He's also posted an edit of the broadcasts (which may not last long):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8xppm9tzXc8&feature=youtu.be

 

[Davros]

Inone of them have said that Webber stayed in "coast mode",

I'm pretty sure I remember Webber saying he turned the engine down in a post race interview (either sky or bbc as i watched them both)

 

[itsmydamnation]

the big issue is that webber had 4-5 seconds over vettel before the round of pit stops and came out with vettel right on his arse. If that's not gunning it on your in and out laps while your team mate is costing i don't know what is.

 

[jimbo75]

Like I mentioned earlier, the tyres put on by both drivers for the final stint tells a story I believe.

 

[Wynix]

Like I mentioned earlier, the tyres put on by both drivers for the final stint tells a story I believe.

Webber went with hard while seb went with medium, correct?
If true that was a stupid decision by redbull, almost makes it seem like it was done on purpose.

 

[DuckThor Evil]

I'm pretty sure I remember Webber saying he turned the engine down in a post race interview (either sky or bbc as i watched them both)

I already answered that by asking whether he kept the power down?

the big issue is that webber had 4-5 seconds over vettel before the round of pit stops and came out with vettel right on his arse. If that's not gunning it on your in and out laps while your team mate is costing i don't know what is.

The last gap between them just before Vettel pitted was 3.1 seconds. Their deal was to stop racing after the final stops are completed, so of course Vettel pushes as hard as he can until Webber comes out and they see what the order is. The one who pits first get's a massive advantage by having fresh tyres against someone whos tires are almost gone. Webber's inlap was slow, I don't know if he made an error or if he also thought the gap was bigger, but he almost lost to Vettel fair and square, now little bit less fair.

 

[Billy Idol]

Just heard in a german TV news that Webber does not get a new RB contract next year. Is this true? Boy, what is going on!?

 

[Wynix]

Just heard in a german TV news that Webber does not get a new RB contract next year. Is this true? Boy, what is going on!?

"Does not get a new contract" implies it would be redbull firing webber which seems unlikely, it's more likely that webber will leave redbull of his own volition.

 

[Billy Idol]

"Does not get a new contract" implies it would be redbull firing webber which seems unlikely, it's more likely that webber will leave redbull of his own volition.

The german news did sound as if Web gets fired...which is why I asked if true. I can easily understand if Web wants to leave RB on the other hand.

 

[Phil]

I've probably seen all the same videos and interviews you have, none of them have said that Webber stayed in "coast mode", only that it was planned and agreed prior to race to take place after the final pit stops.

I'm going to assume he was, because earlier in the race when Vettel first closed the gap to Webber and came on the radio in a very dissmissive tone "get him out of the way", it begs the question why he didn't just pass him. I'm going to assume he couldn't, despite the fact that Webber was clearly driving to specific lap times - perhaps because he was too. This may also highlight that there was some kind of arangement before the race, which is why Vettel came on the radio.

One way or the other - the majority of reports and statements in and outside the Redbull indicate that Webber was under the assumption that his possition wouldn't be attacked and that "multi21" is more than simply a setting on the wheel, but in fact team-order. Given the pace Webber had at hand earlier when Vettel first encountered the rear of Webber and he pulled away, I'm pretty sure Webber could have maintained the gap and secured a win if he had went against the teams orders.

When watching the race - I was actually quite surprised to see that Webber had lost that 4 second lead when coming out of the pits he had earlier and how Vettel suddenly was much quicker. I think this further points to that the cars most likely weren't quite driving (or being driven) under equal settings/assumptions.

 

[DuckThor Evil]

I'm going to assume he was, because earlier in the race when Vettel first closed the gap to Webber and came on the radio in a very dissmissive tone "get him out of the way", it begs the question why he didn't just pass him. I'm going to assume he couldn't, despite the fact that Webber was clearly driving to specific lap times - perhaps because he was too. This may also highlight that there was some kind of arangement before the race, which is why Vettel came on the radio.

We are going pretty deep into the speculation now Perhaps he didn't try to overtake him, because at that point he was still somewhat following the orders to maintain the gap? Vettel was told that "be patient, it's only half race" implying that there will be an opportunity pass Webber later. However that allowed the Mercs to come in closer and Hamilton to pass Vettel during the pits. Vettel lost a ton of time there. Perhaps that rubbed him the wrong way, because that and the too early first pit stop were the reasons his win was in jeopardy in the first place.

One way or the other - the majority of reports and statements in and outside the Redbull indicate that Webber was under the assumption that his possition wouldn't be attacked and that "multi21" is more than simply a setting on the wheel, but in fact team-order. Given the pace Webber had at hand earlier when Vettel first encountered the rear of Webber and he pulled away, I'm pretty sure Webber could have maintained the gap and secured a win if he had went against the teams orders.

Webber had a couple (was it 2) fast laps after the first pitstop and got about 2 seconds on Vettel from them (mosly on his out lap), that's not really pulling away imo. You draw quite a bit of conclusions from those two laps. That was also when the track was partly wet. Vettel was first told to save Tires and Webber only after that. Imo that's not where the race would have been decided, but when Webber's pace allowed Hamilton to overtake Vettel. I understand that Webber was saving his tires and doing what he was supposed to do there.

When watching the race - I was actually quite surprised to see that Webber had lost that 4 second lead when coming out of the pits he had earlier and how Vettel suddenly was much quicker. I think this further points to that the cars most likely weren't quite driving (or being driven) under equal settings/assumptions.

It was 3.1 seconds when Vettel came in and look how much Vettel lost to Hamilton and Webber in the previous pit stops, when they pitted earlier. Webber's in lap was slow, but that was the only "weird" lap from him. I don't know if he made an error on that lap, whether his tires were gone or if he really had turned power down already by then, but I doubt it. The race was supposed to be on until the final stops were completed and it was within a hair of Vettel actually overcoming the time he lost behind Hamilton.

 

[Phil]

Webber had a couple (was it 2) fast laps after the first pitstop and got about 2 seconds on Vettel from them (mosly on his out lap), that's not really pulling away imo. You draw quite a bit of conclusions from those two laps.

The only conclusion I'm drawing is that when Vettel radioed the team to "get Webber out of the way" - Webber upped the pace and pulled away. Pulled away in this context means driving quicker and pulling a gap, which is exactly what he did. This shows (and the commentators mentioned this during the race) that Webber was most probably driving to delta which is why Vettel came up and felt blocked by Webber.

I find Vettels radio message odd:

Why didn't he pass Webber if he was quicker (driving to faster deltas)?
- Was the speed difference too small to effectively pass Webber on his own?
- Were there pre-race agreements in place?

Vettel has passed his team-mate on numerous occasions (with and without a fight) in previous years - either due to being on a different strategy or quicker tyres. Coming on the radio in the dismissive tone that he had, lets me think that he was agitated for a reason.

I have no doubt however that if the speed differential had been larger, that he would have passed his team mate on his own without radioing is team in the tone that he did. This IMO gives further credibility to the fact that when Vettel closed at the end of the race and passed Webber that the cars weren't running under equal settings - which Redbull and Webber themselves have implied when talking about what exactly "multi21" is.

 

[Davros]

Bbc 4 did a radio program about Hunt / Lauda
not sure if a proxy will be needed for non brits
http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b01rfy5f

 

[DuckThor Evil]

The only conclusion I'm drawing is that when Vettel radioed the team to "get Webber out of the way" - Webber upped the pace and pulled away. Pulled away in this context means driving quicker and pulling a gap, which is exactly what he did. This shows (and the commentators mentioned this during the race) that Webber was most probably driving to delta which is why Vettel came up and felt blocked by Webber.

Ok I thought you meant earlier in the race. However Webber was driving really slow laps before Vettel complained about it. I wouldn't call that pulling away either as it doesn't make any sense to drive so close to car in front if you are trying to save tires. Sure the slow speed of Webber there wasn't his true pace, but his pace compromized Vettel.

I find Vettels radio message odd:

Why didn't he pass Webber if he was quicker (driving to faster deltas)?
- Was the speed difference too small to effectively pass Webber on his own?
- Were there pre-race agreements in place?

Vettel has passed his team-mate on numerous occasions (with and without a fight) in previous years - either due to being on a different strategy or quicker tyres. Coming on the radio in the dismissive tone that he had, lets me think that he was agitated for a reason.

Well he was told to hold the gap to Webber earlier in the stint. Seeing Hamilton closing on him probably got him agitated. I think he was supposed to overtake Webber later, but getting stuck behind Hamilton ruined it.

I have no doubt however that if the speed differential had been larger, that he would have passed his team mate on his own without radioing is team in the tone that he did. This IMO gives further credibility to the fact that when Vettel closed at the end of the race and passed Webber that the cars weren't running under equal settings - which Redbull and Webber themselves have implied when talking about what exactly "multi21" is.

It's possible, but at this point I'm not too convinced of it. The amount Vettel closed in on Webber is inline on what happened to Vettel on previous pitstops. I believe the plan was to pit Vettel earlier for the last stint and have him overtake Webber at the pits, but Vettel being stuck behind Hamilton narrowly ruined that. Usually the one in front gets to pit first, but Vettel pitted first for some reason here.

 

[Tahir2]

Any legs on the rumour that Webber is not to have his contract renewed next year? Not heard anything on the English sites/TV.

Edit:
Found something

http://www.grandprix.com/ns/ns25094.html

Edit 2:

More stuff from Briatore

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/106393

"Vettel is the boss there. You can't have a team manager also doing the driving."

Briatore accused Red Bull team boss Christian Horner of weakness, alleging that the power balance between Horner, technical director Adrian Newey, Red Bull advisor Helmut Marko and company chief Dietrich Mateschitz is flawed.

"If there was a manager with balls, he would have had them switch positions again," said Briatore.

"The problem is that there are two people with different ideas on the pit wall, with Helmut behind them doing the talking with Mateschitz, so you understand they are all scared."

He also criticised the fact that Newey was on the podium rather than Horner.

"Normally the team principal goes on the podium at the first race win of the season," said Briatore.

"Christian didn't even have the strength to get on the podium - because they're terrified with a driver in charge instead of the team manager. You'd first go yourself if you win the championship or the first race, and after that you'd send race engineers or your technical director.

"The fact that Christian didn't go on the podium after scoring a one-two says a lot about his weakness compared to the others."

And as the story further unfolds Redbull respond to Flavio (he is Mark's manager)

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/formula1/21952769

Red Bull told BBC Sport this was "pure speculation".

"We are two races into the current season and it's far too early to be talking about 2014," the team said.
"Mark and Seb have driven together since 2009 and the pairing has achieved 35 wins, 80 podiums, 13 one-two finishes and six Formula 1 world championships," the team said.
"This successful period includes some spells of intense on-track rivalry between the two drivers, which began in Turkey 2010 and has seen both drivers ignoring team orders at different times."
Vettel ignored a call to stay behind team-mate Webber in Malaysia on Sunday and overtook him with 13 laps remaining to win the race.
"The team has managed the situation each time in its own way behind closed doors," the team added.
"It's pure speculation that Mark will not drive with the team in 2014.

 

[jimbo75]

I do feel that Vettel was a bit spooked by Hamilton behind him when he told them to get Webber out of the way. That's understandable as Hamilton has some history of passing Vettel.