Formula 1 - 2013 Season

[Gubbi]

That was a weird podium with very little celebration.

Vettel looked sheepish (rightly so).

Hamilton and Rosberg have been friends since their carting days, and Hamilton looked outright embarrassed, Rosberg must've been disgusted with the whole affair Very stupid call by Ross Brawn.

Oh, and I agree with everybody else, Vettel is an *sshole.

Cheers

 

[Billy Idol]

So it is bad that Vettel did overtake Webber? You guys really prefered a race where those two just drove nicely behind each other to the end? Or see one of the best overtake battles? Only mistake Vettel did was to apologize for being fast and for overtaking - I guess he was forced to do it. Webber should just quit F1 imo. Since a decade, he is consistently the slower team driver and now starts moaning when others are faster...oh boy, I miss the old days with Alain Prost and Ayrton Senna!


On the other hand, it is a bit astounding for me that Mercedes showed its real face this early: they clearly think that Hamilton is the way to go. It is more so astounding to me as Rosberg is a german driver (in a german team) and consistently did a fantastic driving job since entering F1. Last year he clearly outclassed Michael Schumacher. This race, he was clearly faster than Hamilton. Jimbo75 you just have to accept it: overall, Rosberg did a much better race and had a better pace overall. The gas strategy dores not count in the way you want to argue Jimbo75, as obviously Hamilton could not capitalize on this strategy as much as the team hoped he could achieve.

On the other hand, I don't mind team order that much, so it is as it is, no drama. I wished that Rosberg did a Vettel and just overtake Hamilton without thinking to much about the consequences...

 

[DuckThor Evil]

A few people in this thread have shown their constant bias against Lewis, for anyone without this bias its as plan as day to see. For people who just want to read honest assessment and incite in to a race its annoying as hell.

Well I personally want to apologize one of my stupid post from yesterday. Usually immune system blocks out virus attacks, but sometimes one get's through. The constant mix of idiocy and trolling bombardment from Jimbo got through and I tried to lower myself in to his level. I try to not repeat it, besides I like Hamilton, just hate Jimbo more.

Vettel's move was dickish, no question about that, but just like Schumacher and Senna, the winners sometimes go into the gray territory and beyond. The rest of the field often are reduced to trying instead of achieving. Vettel was within an inch of passing Webber, when Webber got out of the pits and Vettel probably got annoyed by getting so close and went into kill mode. He had better tires and I think he knows he can get away from incident like this every once in a while.

I enjoyed the racing from my couch. It's not only a team sport, it's also an individual and a spectator sport.

 

[jimbo75]

Be honest Dr Evil, you were pissed off because Kimi was having a joke of a race.

 

[Rurouni]

So it is bad that Vettel did overtake Webber? You guys really prefered a race where those two just drove nicely behind each other to the end? Or see one of the best overtake battles? Only mistake Vettel did was to apologize for being fast and for overtaking - I guess he was forced to do it.

It's better without TO, but what Vettel did is not fair because I believe both were asked to hold and turn down some setting. Webber complied, Vettel not. Vettel was faster because he can use more power. If Webber were to retaliate, they both probably would be in tyre trouble, which I don't mind at all.
Yes, TO is not good, especially early in the season. But RB do it because they probably don't want to risk tyre wear + preserving the machine.

As long as the driver in front isn't much slower, then TO to hold position is okay. Or if the driver behind is much faster thus a TO to overtake with minimal delay is fine. Or if one is realistically in contention for WDC and one is out of it, a TO is also fine.
The first scenario is perfectly acceptable (but I would give them chance for a couple of laps to battle it out), the 2nd scenario depends on the situation, the 3rd one I don't like but probably a must.
This is only my opinion. But whether people agree/disagree with TO, it doesn't erase the fact that what Vettel did was dick-ish.

 

[jimbo75]

This race, he was clearly faster than Hamilton. Jimbo75 you just have to accept it: overall, Rosberg did a much better race and had a better pace overall. The gas strategy dores not count in the way you want to argue Jimbo75, as obviously Hamilton could not capitalize on this strategy as much as the team hoped he could achieve.

On the other hand, I don't mind team order that much, so it is as it is, no drama. I wished that Rosberg did a Vettel and just overtake Hamilton without thinking to much about the consequences...

I disagree that he was clearly faster. The team miscalculated Hamilton's fuel and Hamilton was in dirty air a lot more of the race than Rosberg was.

Once again, Rosberg was also running low on fuel. What Brawn said made some sense also - Rosberg wasn't told to hold position until him and Hamilton had traded 3rd three times in 4-5 laps. Brawn said that they were just wasting more fuel with each pass.

Obviously Hamilton had burned through more, but he was also faster for the majority of the race. I can't see how this makes Rosberg clearly faster.

 

[Gubbi]

So it is bad that Vettel did overtake Webber? You guys really prefered a race where those two just drove nicely behind each other to the end? Or see one of the best overtake battles? Only mistake Vettel did was to apologize for being fast and for overtaking - I guess he was forced to do it.

The only reason Vettel succesfully overtook Webber was because Webber resigned in order to not repeat Turkey 2010.

Had Vettel tried overtaking Alonso, Hamilton, Massa or Raikkonen in a similar fashion he'd been out of the race, they would have shut the door in corners one and two.

Webber should just quit F1 imo. Since a decade, he is consistently the slower team driver and now starts moaning when others are faster...oh boy, I miss the old days with Alain Prost and Ayrton Senna!

He wasn't slower in 2010, he has been given a constant stream of team orders though.

You want to see team mates battle it out ? Hope you enjoyed yesterday, because there won't be any more of it in this season from RB. RB will revert to the tactics of last season where they pulled Webber into the pits every time Vettel got near him (examples: early in Abu Dhabi grand prix, late in the Korean grand prix).

Cheers

 

[Billy Idol]

In my opinion you have to take the whole race into account. It does not only count at the beginning of the race where Ham was faster (because he was allowed to use more fuel?) but till the end of the race. At the end, Ros could have gone much faster than Ham and easily overtake him...that is why I think and say that Ros was much faster in this race.

I also believe that if Ham was really that embarrased by the move of his team...he should have just let Ros overtake him to give a clear statement towards the team. But he did not. In fact, he was quite happy that the team decided this way...for obvious reasons. I really have the opinion that all(!) racers are little egoistic assholes fighting only for themselves...and I think it is kind of a romantic naive view on F1 to think that there is something like a gentlemen racer.

With respect to Vet and Web, I am really surprised that Web agreed to not fight? I did not know that. On the other hand...it sure did not look like that on the track...they fought a really tough battle out there...both of them.

 

[jimbo75]

In my opinion you have to take the whole race into account. It does not only count at the beginning of the race where Ham was faster (because he was allowed to use more fuel?) but till the end of the race. At the end, Ros could have gone much faster than Ham and easily overtake him...that is why I think and say that Ros was much faster in this race.

Yes he was faster because of using more fuel, but he was also being slowed down by having worse tyre degradation due to following the RB's so much closer. Rosberg basically did what Raikkonen did in the last race and had an empty track ahead of him for most of it.

Twice in the race Rosberg was told to "use the tyres". I think it's reasonable to assume that Hamilton was losing more out of being so close to the RB's than he gained by burning more fuel which basically kept him in the dirty air. Twice when RB's pitted he put in fastest laps and briefly took 2nd place - he might have overdone it on fuel then in order to take the position. His 3rd stint only lasted 9 laps btw, which says a lot for how bad his tyres must have been then.

 

[jimbo75]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/formula1/21918537

Interesting point made by Gary Anderson over the authority Brawn had compared to Horner.

 

[Kaotik]

Yes he was faster because of using more fuel, but he was also being slowed down by having worse tyre degradation due to following the RB's so much closer. Rosberg basically did what Raikkonen did in the last race and had an empty track ahead of him for most of it.

Twice in the race Rosberg was told to "use the tyres". I think it's reasonable to assume that Hamilton was losing more out of being so close to the RB's than he gained by burning more fuel which basically kept him in the dirty air. Twice when RB's pitted he put in fastest laps and briefly took 2nd place - he might have overdone it on fuel then in order to take the position. His 3rd stint only lasted 9 laps btw, which says a lot for how bad his tyres must have been then.

So driving a wise race is punishable by team orders now too?
Just because one of your drivers is trying different tactic (burn fuel first and save it half the race) doesn't mean that it has to be rewarded by position over the other driver whose tactic was more successful.

edit:
And looking these charts: http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/2013/03/24/2013-malaysian-grand-prix-lap-charts/ Hamilton wasn't really that much closer to Red Bulls than Rosberg was to him.

 

[jimbo75]

So driving a wise race is punishable by team orders now too?
Just because one of your drivers is trying different tactic (burn fuel first and save it half the race) doesn't mean that it has to be rewarded by position over the other driver whose tactic was more successful.

Oh so you're just going to ignore the fact that they overtook each other 3 times in 5 laps? In that case - with both burning more fuel - then yes the prudent thing to do was put a stop to it.

edit:
And looking these charts: http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/2013/03/24/2013-malaysian-grand-prix-lap-charts/ Hamilton wasn't really that much closer to Red Bulls than Rosberg was to him.

You need to look harder at that chart. For most of it, Rosberg is double the distance from Hamilton that Hamilton is to Vettel/Webber.

 

[Davros]

It does not only count at the beginning of the race where Ham was faster (because he was allowed to use more fuel?)

No he used more fuel because he was going faster, not going faster because he was allowed to use more fuel. Theres a difference.

Ros could have gone much faster than Ham and easily overtake him

As ross said when rosberg was saying he can go faster, hamilton can go faster too, but he's been told to stick to a certain pace to reduce to risk of running out of fuel, just like rosberg is being told to to stick to the same pace (via hold position, not lap at time x)
remember drivers do not have fuel gauges. rosberg knows he can drive faster (as can hamilton) but he doesnt know if he can drive faster and not run out of fuel

 

[Rurouni]

Oh so you're just going to ignore the fact that they overtook each other 3 times in 5 laps? In that case - with both burning more fuel - then yes the prudent thing to do was put a stop to it.



You need to look harder at that chart. For most of it, Rosberg is double the distance from Hamilton that Hamilton is to Vettel/Webber.

Yes, the overtaking stuff didn't help the fuel situation. But at the end it's like saying to Rosberg that he needs to surrender because they want Hamilton to finish. They could order Hamilton to let Rosberg pass him but they didn't. It felt like the team try to please Hamilton (or maybe babysit him) at the expense of Rosberg... or more accurately they don't think Hamilton would easily obey the order compared to Rosberg thus instead of arguing with their new star, they choose the path of least resistance.

 

[Kaotik]

Oh so you're just going to ignore the fact that they overtook each other 3 times in 5 laps? In that case - with both burning more fuel - then yes the prudent thing to do was put a stop to it.

Yes, and let the faster one go first. Nico just should have done the pass on the 2nd DRS zone, not the first which allowed Hamilton to come back at him.

You need to look harder at that chart. For most of it, Rosberg is double the distance from Hamilton that Hamilton is to Vettel/Webber.

Starting from Lap 9 when all 3 had pitted already 'till the last lap before anyone went to pits, 20, average time difference:
Vettel vs Hamilton: 3,3 secs
Hamilton vs Rosberg: ~3,25 secs
That's one stint where Hamilton had to be "pushing and burning fuel" while Rosberg wasn't.
Should I do the other stints 'till the half way when Hamilton was told to save fuel, too?

No he used more fuel because he was going faster, not going faster because he was allowed to use more fuel. Theres a difference.

http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/2013/03/24/2013-malaysian-grand-prix-lap-times-fastest-laps/
Select "None", then enable Hamilton & Rosberg. Hamilton wasn't going faster.

 

[jimbo75]

Yes, and let the faster one go first. Nico just should have done the pass on the 2nd DRS zone, not the first which allowed Hamilton to come back at him.

Yet he didn't do it there and instead failed 3 times to hold the position. Looking at the gap times it's clear Rosberg was only able to pass and hold 3rd when Hamilton was really conserving fuel late on, and after Brawn had told them both to hold position. You could say that he was given every chance and failed to take it even with Hamilton conserving fuel. I agree he should have been allowed to pass very late on, but before then he was given his chance and didn't take it even with Hamilton clearly nursing his fuel.

Starting from Lap 9 when all 3 had pitted already 'till the last lap before anyone went to pits, 20, average time difference:
Vettel vs Hamilton: 3,3 secs
Hamilton vs Rosberg: ~3,25 secs
That's one stint where Hamilton had to be "pushing and burning fuel" while Rosberg wasn't.
Should I do the other stints 'till the half way when Hamilton was told to save fuel, too?

That simply shows that you can use "average" to twist something to your agenda. Put Vettel, Hamilton and Rosberg on the plot and you can clearly see that for the majority of the useful part of the race, Hamilton was closer to Vettel for far more laps than Rosberg was closer to Hamilton. You've made up the average in favour of Rosberg because at the times when all cars were far away from each other (and therefore having a much lesser effect on tyres, if any at all), Rosberg was closer to Hamilton. The parts that matter are the parts where Hamilton was within the dirty air of Vettel, and there are far more of those compared to when Rosberg was in Hamilton's.

The chart also shows that Hamilton probably burned his fuel in the undercut (his fault or the teams?). He lost a lot of time in his 3rd stint in-lap as well.

 

[Kaotik]

Lap-by-lap then,
Vet & Ham
5,35
4,48
3,72
2,99
2,37
2,28
2,36
2,55
2,77
2,91
3,6
4,22

Ham & Ros
4,37
4,45
4,29
3,8
3,93
3,48
3,32
2,96
2,69
2,45
1,79
1,45

 

[jimbo75]

Look at the chart -

Hamilton (dark grey) is clearly much closer to Vettel (blue) in the parts of the race where he was burning fuel instead of conserving it. It's especially clear between laps 23 and 29 where Hamilton was pushing very hard and finally overtook Vettel after both had pitted.

Edit - All I'm saying is that while he was burning more fuel, he was almost certainly losing at least the same amount of performance due to Vettel's dirty air. You can't say that Rosberg was faster because he wasn't burning as much fuel, because he also wasn't being as badly affected by tyre wear due to proximity to the guy in front.

 

[Davros]

Yes, the overtaking stuff didn't help the fuel situation. But at the end it's like saying to Rosberg that he needs to surrender because they want Hamilton to finish.

Or saying to Rosberg that he needs to surrender because they want Him to finish.
Do we know that Rosberg was ok for fuel

 

[jimbo75]

Or saying to Rosberg that he needs to surrender because they want Him to finish.
Do we know that Rosberg was ok for fuel

We know that he wasn't ok for fuel because Brawn said both drivers were running low. Obviously Hamilton was in worse shape though.