If Massa starts next season with the same kind of form he's in now, and is able to lead races or stay ahead of Alonso on merit, I really doubt Ferrari are going to tell him to let Alonso through. The damage that would do to them in Brazil would be worth more than anything Alonso is worth to them.
Formula 1 - 2012 Season
- Thread starter Dave Baumann
- Start date
Of course they will, Alonsos contract makes sure they will. It's no different from Schumachers contract at Ferrari in those terms.
I really don't think so. Massa counted himself out of 2010 and 2011 due to some awful performances leaving him so far behind in the championship that Ferrari basically had no alternative but to get behind Alonso.
They aren't going to do that if he's still in with a chance and performing. No driver would accept that regardless. He only had himself to blame at Hockenheim when he was told to let Alonso through - he hadn't scored a point in the previous 3 races and had left himself almost 90 points behind Hamilton and completely out of the equation.
Alonso went on to an incredible run at the end of the season and was unlucky not to win the championship. I don't like team orders in F1 and I don't like #1 and #2 drivers, but Ferrari are doing what they need to do for Ferrari's sake, not for Alonso's.
They aren't going to do that if he's still in with a chance and performing. No driver would accept that regardless. He only had himself to blame at Hockenheim when he was told to let Alonso through - he hadn't scored a point in the previous 3 races and had left himself almost 90 points behind Hamilton and completely out of the equation.
Alonso went on to an incredible run at the end of the season and was unlucky not to win the championship. I don't like team orders in F1 and I don't like #1 and #2 drivers, but Ferrari are doing what they need to do for Ferrari's sake, not for Alonso's.
Massa had no choice but to accept it, no doubt, after all the money Santander poured in.
Nothing changed from what Irvine and Barrichello had to affect with Schumacher
Well if that's true it's up to him to change it. First of all he has to consistently outperform Alonso in qualifying, something that he's nowhere near doing. If he really is fast enough to challenge Alonso fairly that's where he needs to start - from the start of the season.
and after he has done all that, he has to do that continously 'till Alonsos contract expires
Well first he has to actually do it or even look like he's capable. Since Alonso joined in 2010 he's outqualified Massa by 47 to 10.
It's hard to make a case for him being treated unfairly when he's been systematically outqualified and outraced by his team-mate for the 3 seasons they've been together. Sure there have been races where he's been told to move over, but when he's found himself in a position where he's not in with a chance of the championship while his team-mate is, that's going to happen. It happens everywhere - Webber was told to maintain the gap to Vettel as well.
The only reason it hasn't happened anywhere else is nobody else has really been close enough or in that position. Whitmarsh can say what he likes but if Hamilton was still in with a chance then Button would be playing second fiddle in some respect. Ditto Grosjean at Lotus.
It's hard to make a case for him being treated unfairly when he's been systematically outqualified and outraced by his team-mate for the 3 seasons they've been together. Sure there have been races where he's been told to move over, but when he's found himself in a position where he's not in with a chance of the championship while his team-mate is, that's going to happen. It happens everywhere - Webber was told to maintain the gap to Vettel as well.
The only reason it hasn't happened anywhere else is nobody else has really been close enough or in that position. Whitmarsh can say what he likes but if Hamilton was still in with a chance then Button would be playing second fiddle in some respect. Ditto Grosjean at Lotus.
I'm not saying Massa would be capable of doing that, just saying that even if he was, it's pointless considering his chances to win championship or something.
Yes, putting 1 driver ahead of other when only one still has chance for championship is normal, however what Ferrari does is doing that since day 1, and uses more drastic measures than others (like the +5 last race for Massa)
Yes, putting 1 driver ahead of other when only one still has chance for championship is normal, however what Ferrari does is doing that since day 1, and uses more drastic measures than others (like the +5 last race for Massa)
If you look at the 2010 and 2011 seasons Massa actually got off to a decent start and beat Alonso in a few races, but he just didn't seem to be able to maintain it for whatever reason.
In 2010 he had beaten Alonso in 4 of the first 7 races, then blew it in the next 3 scoring no points. Looking at the individual races, he was 3rd to Alonso's 4th in Australia and 7th to Alonso's 8th in Turkey - obviously he wasn't told to move over then.
Looking at 2011, he was 5th to Alonso's 6th in Malaysia, 6th to Alonso's 7th in China then went on a 3 race run without scoring any points again.
Ferrari are giving him the chance but he's not been able to maintain his position past the first 6 or so races of the season. They know the car isn't really competitive with the RB and McLaren and they are more willing to make the early decision because of that. If it was the other way around and Alonso started off badly, they'd give him some more time sure, but I have no doubt they'd throw everything behind Massa if he was in with a chance of the championship and Alonso was looking more and more likely to be out of it.
In 2010 he had beaten Alonso in 4 of the first 7 races, then blew it in the next 3 scoring no points. Looking at the individual races, he was 3rd to Alonso's 4th in Australia and 7th to Alonso's 8th in Turkey - obviously he wasn't told to move over then.
Looking at 2011, he was 5th to Alonso's 6th in Malaysia, 6th to Alonso's 7th in China then went on a 3 race run without scoring any points again.
Ferrari are giving him the chance but he's not been able to maintain his position past the first 6 or so races of the season. They know the car isn't really competitive with the RB and McLaren and they are more willing to make the early decision because of that. If it was the other way around and Alonso started off badly, they'd give him some more time sure, but I have no doubt they'd throw everything behind Massa if he was in with a chance of the championship and Alonso was looking more and more likely to be out of it.
Silent_Buddha
Legend
2010 and I believe 2011, team orders were prohibited. They couldn't tell Massa to back off during races. So the only other thing they could do was make sure that his car was slightly worse than Alonso's car if he was performing better than Alonso.
This year they don't have to bother trying to hide it.
Regards,
SB
Team orders were allowed in 2011, and Massa still finished ahead of Alonso in 2 early races. Just 1 place ahead of him - no more than a couple of seconds ahead - if Ferrari wanted to they could easily have told him to move over.
It has always been in the sport in some way - Massa helped Raikkonen win the title by sacrificing his lead at Brazil in 2007 as well. In a team sport, the player who is lagging behind takes one for the team. They just don't do it at at the start of a season though because it would seriously affect the whole sport and would quickly lead to a breakdown.
Massa has never had a slower car either - in each of the past 3 seasons he's been beating or faster than Alonso at some point. His problem is he can't sustain it. The last 2-3 races his car has looked quicker if anything - he even passed Raikkonen in a corner section while Alonso couldn't quite catch him the race before. Having a slower car on one of your racers is counter productive - Massa has been awful in regards taking points away from Vettel this season, while Webber has taken a lot from Alonso.
It's all in his head I'm afraid. He simply wasn't able to contend with Alonso's sheer pace while he was able to deal with his previous team-mates. This happens in F1 all the time, and it's why Alonso left McLaren too - he just couldn't cope with Hamilton being so fast. It's a serious blow to the ego when you think you are at a certain unbeatable level, only for a younger, newer driver to the team to prove you maybe weren't that fast after all.
It has always been in the sport in some way - Massa helped Raikkonen win the title by sacrificing his lead at Brazil in 2007 as well. In a team sport, the player who is lagging behind takes one for the team. They just don't do it at at the start of a season though because it would seriously affect the whole sport and would quickly lead to a breakdown.
Massa has never had a slower car either - in each of the past 3 seasons he's been beating or faster than Alonso at some point. His problem is he can't sustain it. The last 2-3 races his car has looked quicker if anything - he even passed Raikkonen in a corner section while Alonso couldn't quite catch him the race before. Having a slower car on one of your racers is counter productive - Massa has been awful in regards taking points away from Vettel this season, while Webber has taken a lot from Alonso.
It's all in his head I'm afraid. He simply wasn't able to contend with Alonso's sheer pace while he was able to deal with his previous team-mates. This happens in F1 all the time, and it's why Alonso left McLaren too - he just couldn't cope with Hamilton being so fast. It's a serious blow to the ego when you think you are at a certain unbeatable level, only for a younger, newer driver to the team to prove you maybe weren't that fast after all.
I'm really not sure I want Alonso or Ferrari to win this championship.
The stunt they pulled with the grid penality on Massa's car to get Alonso onto the clean side of the grid IMO is bordering into bringing the sport into disrepute. I also have my problems with the way Ferrari have been running their championship. IMO - Alonso is not a worthy champion (this year) if the team needs to sacrifice Massa's chances for him.
The stunt they pulled with the grid penality on Massa's car to get Alonso onto the clean side of the grid IMO is bordering into bringing the sport into disrepute. I also have my problems with the way Ferrari have been running their championship. IMO - Alonso is not a worthy champion (this year) if the team needs to sacrifice Massa's chances for him.
That's one way to look at it. Another might be that there are always questions over the legality of the Red Bull, so Vettel doesn't deserve it either.
Or like I said last post - Alonso has had no help from Massa in a race (as regards taking points away from Vettel) while Webber has cost Alonso some 19 points by my calculations.
I just think Vettel is an ungracious arse and I'd take anyone above him winning the championship tbh. Every time he gets beat he has an excuse.
Or like I said last post - Alonso has had no help from Massa in a race (as regards taking points away from Vettel) while Webber has cost Alonso some 19 points by my calculations.
I just think Vettel is an ungracious arse and I'd take anyone above him winning the championship tbh. Every time he gets beat he has an excuse.
About the legality - I am no RedBull fan, so I've been quite critical of them pushing the limits of the rules. On the other hand, I'd much rather prefer a team to push those limits, than another team shafting one of their drivers to give their No. 1 an advantage.
If you look at it from another angle:
Webber: 2 wins
Vettel: 5 wins
Alonso: 3 wins
Massa: 0 wins
Between them, Redbull has 7 wins, Ferrari 3 wins. If RedBull would give Vettel the same kind of support Ferrari is giving to Alonso, I have no doubt the championship would already be well wrapped up. And I like Webber, I think he's a lot quicker than most people give him credit and I am highly critical of how much the team supports him and while it may not be the equal grounds that Button enjoys at McLaren in regards to Hamilton, it's a far cry from what Massa is receiving at Ferrari.
Maybe that is Massa's own fault, by not performing stronger throughout the season, but does it make it right for them to make their no. 2 driver receive a penality in order to help his team mate? How far away is this from having a number 2 driver crash into the walls to get the safety car out on time to give their other driver a win? Not very far IMO.
No, IMO Alonso does not deserve this, not by a long shot. I might not think Vettel deserves it either, but with 7 wins among RedBull and McLaren imploding on their own, it's hard not to give it to them. I might not like them, but it's hard not be impressed by the way the team just seems to get so many things right, over 3 consecutive seasons.
BTW: Just out of curiousity, when did Webber cost Alonso points?
tongue_of_colicab
Veteran
I couldnt disagree more.
It's not bringing the sport into disrepute at all. Stuff like this has been happening since forever. At the end of the day F1 is a team sport, the team needs to win. I don't see anything wrong with doing everything possible within the rules to give as much support as possible to the driver that still has a chance of winning the WDC. Do they need to trow away Alonso's WDC chances just so Masa can score a few points more? Doesn't make sense. There isn't anything for Masa to win anymore while Alonso still has everything to win.
Looking through the results I think Webber has been ahead of Alonso 5 or 6 times. What I mean by costing him points is just that he's finished ahead of him (obviously the main one being at Silverstone when he passed Alonso for the lead with only a couple of laps to go). I don't think there has been a single instance where Massa has taken points away from Vettel by finishing ahead of him on the track.
About the legality and spirit of the rules thing - it's happening everywhere. Vettel being able to set up his car for straight line speed in the race after being DSQ during qualifying in Abu Dhabi is a technicality as well.
Alonso deserves it due to being in a much slower car all season, that's basically the #1 reason for me. Even if Massa was right on it from the start, I'm not sure he's got what it takes to beat Vettel in any race in this Ferrari.
Show me ONE incident where team has deliberately taken penalty for 1 driver to improve other drivers chance
