Billy Idol
Legend
Kudos Kaotik!
Formula 1 - 2012 Season
- Thread starter Dave Baumann
- Start date
Fastest laps is about the most meaningless benchmark of driving talent you can have - it merely proves you try to get fastest laps. Nobody cares about getting fastest laps now except Vettel, so he gets most of them. He also has the fastest car, which helps more than anything else. Alonso has never had the fastest car and I'm sure really didn't care about fastest laps. There are no points or prizes for fastest lap.
....right....
So could you give us your compendum that decides who's faster than someone else, other than the factor that if the drivers name is "Alonso" or "Hamilton" he's automaticly faster than the rest no matter what.
Why don't we just gather up the evidence Kaotik.
Alonso Pros
Multiple F1 sources - including the drivers themselves - rate Alonso much higher than Raikkonen.
Ferrari got rid of Raikkonen in favour of Alonso.
Raikkonnen was outqualified and beaten by Massa in two different years while Alonso basically demoralised Massa.
Alonso is currently ahead of him in the championship in a slower car even though he's been run off the road twice.
2 Championships to 1, Alonso is regarded as unlucky not to have won more while Raikkonen is regarded as lucky to have won his.
Alonso Cons
Alonso has less fastest laps.
Taking the above into account, one could (correctly) say that this is probably down to having had a slower car throughout his career than Raikkonen has. Or Alonso doesn't give a shit about fastest laps.
Alonso Pros
Multiple F1 sources - including the drivers themselves - rate Alonso much higher than Raikkonen.
Ferrari got rid of Raikkonen in favour of Alonso.
Raikkonnen was outqualified and beaten by Massa in two different years while Alonso basically demoralised Massa.
Alonso is currently ahead of him in the championship in a slower car even though he's been run off the road twice.
2 Championships to 1, Alonso is regarded as unlucky not to have won more while Raikkonen is regarded as lucky to have won his.
Alonso Cons
Alonso has less fastest laps.
Taking the above into account, one could (correctly) say that this is probably down to having had a slower car throughout his career than Raikkonen has. Or Alonso doesn't give a shit about fastest laps.
Links?
Ferrari got rid of Räikkönen in favour of money, not Alonso. Santander litaraily bought the spot. (No, I'm not denying that Alonso is a good driver, or that Ferrari might have taken him to drive for them later, but at that point, Santander litelarily bought his spot to Ferrari)
And everyone knows Massa hasn't been even close to same after the accident
Slower?
Had Räikkönen had as reliable car as Alonso, he had won 1 or 2 championships more than he has.
....right....Alonso Cons
Alonso has less fastest laps.
Using your logic, you could say just as well Räikkönen haven't given shit about qualifying pace because he knows his race pace is better
I linked them already.
http://f1greatestdrivers.autosport.com/how/ (drivers throughout the decades polled)
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/formula1/17319968
I'm sure there are more saying the same thing.
You assume it was down to the accident and not down to being completely outclassed by Alonso.
Yes I believe the Ferrari is the slower car. Grosjean has beaten Massa in more races (when both finished). Yes Massa has won more recently due to improving, but Grosjean hasn't been the same since his ban either.Slower?
The Lotus is a very good car but it's being driven conservatively (Raikkonen) or like a maniac (Grosjean). The Ferrari - especially in the first third of the season - was a horrible car being driven amazingly by Alonso and terribly by Massa.
That's ridiculous. Qualifying position generally converts into points. Fastest laps generally get you nothing except the chance to get it wrong. That's why drivers like Alonso don't care, and why CH is always telling Vettel to quit arsing around late in the Grand Prix.
Raikkonen has had 2 fastest laps this year, Grosjean 1. Alonso and Massa none. The Ferrari isn't fast enough over a lap - it's a mutt of a car tbh. Why do we know Alonso is the best driver on the grid? Simple - 2 poles in pissing rain at Silverstone and Hockenheim. If it rains the next 2 races (good chance of it), Alonso will be champion.
12th
9th
9th
9th
3rd
6th
3rd
11th
1st
1st
6th
6th
10th
5th
7th
4th
5th
6th
That's Alonso's qualifying positions during the year. Those two poles in the rain stand out as the general qualifying performance is much lower. That's the mark of a great driver, and in the same car he'd blow Raikkonen and almost everyone else away (imo Hamilton is faster but not as complete a driver). He was 1.5 seconds faster than Raikkonen in the rain at Silverstone, and 5.2! seconds faster than Raikkonen at Hockenheim. What more proof do you need?
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Did you actually watch the qualifyings? Ferrari was like driving on dry compared to most teams
Those don't take into account current situation though, funny, one of them puts Vettel quite damn high, wasn't he supposed to be worse than Alonso & Hamilton?
But regardless, this is like talking to a brick wall on both sides, you keep your opinion no matter what, and I keep mine.
Using fastest laps solely from this season as argument for Ferrari being slower is nothing short of stupid, considering that Alonso hasn't been good on getting fast laps in race condition ever compared to Kimi for example, and IIRC Massa doesn't hold that good track record on that front either.
Those don't take into account current situation though, funny, one of them puts Vettel quite damn high, wasn't he supposed to be worse than Alonso & Hamilton?
But regardless, this is like talking to a brick wall on both sides, you keep your opinion no matter what, and I keep mine.
Using fastest laps solely from this season as argument for Ferrari being slower is nothing short of stupid, considering that Alonso hasn't been good on getting fast laps in race condition ever compared to Kimi for example, and IIRC Massa doesn't hold that good track record on that front either.
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CEzqCcF2mps&feature=fvwrel
Is Fernando still correct in saying that Sebestian is not on the same level as Lewis?
Is Fernando still correct in saying that Sebestian is not on the same level as Lewis?
I can't believe how this topic has progressed since last night....
Can't we just deal with that each driver out there has talent and specific strengths? And that these strengths may suit a driver at one track or in a certain car (or set-up) better than others? This kind of meaningless discussion about Raikoennen/Hamilton/Alonso is as meaningless as comparing drivers from todays era to those of last. It just doesn't work.
...and then you also have the point that every driver can have a bad day and underperform. Or that on race-day, certain factors (some out of the drivers hands) might influence the way we perceive him or the statistics that are getting thrown around here?
I think it goes without saying that - Webber is a brilliant driver. Vettel may have the better of him in many races - if this is down to the car better suiting him, moral support, down to psychology/mental strength or simply because he is better - who knows? It still hasn't stopped Webber outperforming Vettel here and there.
Grosjean is also brilliant. He may have made many mistakes this year and come under a lot of pressure, but this guy is quick! And if he gets his act together, Kimi, who is equally brilliant, will have a fight on his hands. A good or better Grosjean doesn't mean Kimi is worse.
Same goes for the rest of the pack. Discussing which driver is better than the other is just meaningless given they don't drive the same cars, have the same team and/or drive completely different races with different factors influencing their results on race day. At least those drivers we're comparing across different teams...
Can't we just deal with that each driver out there has talent and specific strengths? And that these strengths may suit a driver at one track or in a certain car (or set-up) better than others? This kind of meaningless discussion about Raikoennen/Hamilton/Alonso is as meaningless as comparing drivers from todays era to those of last. It just doesn't work.
...and then you also have the point that every driver can have a bad day and underperform. Or that on race-day, certain factors (some out of the drivers hands) might influence the way we perceive him or the statistics that are getting thrown around here?
I think it goes without saying that - Webber is a brilliant driver. Vettel may have the better of him in many races - if this is down to the car better suiting him, moral support, down to psychology/mental strength or simply because he is better - who knows? It still hasn't stopped Webber outperforming Vettel here and there.
Grosjean is also brilliant. He may have made many mistakes this year and come under a lot of pressure, but this guy is quick! And if he gets his act together, Kimi, who is equally brilliant, will have a fight on his hands. A good or better Grosjean doesn't mean Kimi is worse.
Same goes for the rest of the pack. Discussing which driver is better than the other is just meaningless given they don't drive the same cars, have the same team and/or drive completely different races with different factors influencing their results on race day. At least those drivers we're comparing across different teams...
You guys should be discussing the only benchmark that counts.
Using fastest laps as an argument of ability is stupid, because not all drivers care about it. Some would rather protect their lead and ensure nothing breaks on the car instead of risking it all for a tick-box that wins them nothing.
Or maybe the car just isn't good enough? There's a reason why the Caterham and Marussia drivers don't get fastest laps either. Alonso's and Massa's qualifying positions proves that the car is slow - at least in low fuel conditions. One might suggest that Alonso still being in with a chance of the championship with a car that isn't even capable of decent qualifying or fastest laps is even more proof of his superiority.
Why isn't Raikkonen getting so many fastest laps now on his return? Simple, because Vettel wants them more and Raikkonen doesn't have the pace.
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You will not find any non-Finn on the planet who believes Raikkonen should be mentioned in the same breath as the other three.
This is the issue Kaotik - you're blinded by patriotism. Raikkonen is a good driver, but he is not in the same class as the other 3. I am not biased - I have no love of any of the mentioned drivers I simply see them all for what they are. I was really happy to see Raikkonen hold on for a win last week (as i said a week ago I normally support the underdog) even though an Alonso win would be best for the championship.
This is what makes the difference between great drivers and fast drivers. Hamilton is a fast driver, without a doubt the fastest in the field when things are going his way. Alonso is a great driver who performs consistently no matter what - so long as the car isn't so bad that it is truly hopeless, Alonso will always be right up there. He's just that good.
Risking it all, just driving as fast as you can which any racing driver should do.
Or is it that Alonso, Hamilton & co aren't really racing drivers anymore, but rather just tools for the team managers and engineers at the pitlane?
This is a good read related to that: http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/blog/2012/nov/05/kimi-raikkonen-f1-robots
And before last race Räikkönen still had a chance at title with slower car than Ferrari, which is even more amazing considering that in todays F1 almost all overtaking positions are at the end of straights, and straightline speed is something where Ferrari is amazing while Lotus is one of the slowest (even to the point where the mentioned Caterham and Marussia can be faster)
Vettel has gotten 3 more than Räikkönen this season in clearly superior car, while Räikkönen has gotten 2 more than Alonso with slower car. Alonso didn't do any better when he was sitting in the fastest car of the grid
Yes, the season on which McLaren was clearly slower than Ferrari and Renault were, not to mention unreliable.
