Formula 1 - 2012 Season
- Thread starter Dave Baumann
- Start date
Crazy race. Initially looked like it was going to be pretty uninteresting but ended up being really thrilling. Was hoping to see one of the Lotus' win but didn't happen. Oh well.
The only reason Hamilton wasn't on the racing line going in to the corner was because Maldonado was travelling too fast in to the corner, and forced Hamilton to take a tighter line in to the corner, which also forces him to take a wider line coming out of the corner. Maldonado basically put himself in the position where either Hamilton would have to slow down to let him past (not something you would expect a racing driver to do), or be forced off the track. After he left the track, rather than following the rules and rejoining only when it was safe to do so, he ploughed in to the side of Hamilton.
I had hoped you'd grown out of the mindless Hamilton-bashing Kaotik.
I had hoped you'd grown out of the mindless Hamilton-bashing Kaotik.
Erm, the reason Hamilton wasn't on racing line is the fact that Maldonado tried to overtake him, just like Grosjean overtook Hamilton in the exact same corner, only different is that back then Hamilton did leave Grosjean enough room,
I don't care if it was Hamilton & Maldonado there, or any other pair of drivers in same situation, what Maldonado did was wrong, but it was caused by Hamilton breaking the rules first.
I don't care if it was Hamilton & Maldonado there, or any other pair of drivers in same situation, what Maldonado did was wrong, but it was caused by Hamilton breaking the rules first.
You do realise you can't just say "someone else overtook at that corner therefore it was Hamiltons fault". Watch the Grosjean overtake. Hamilton was positioned much further to the left at the time, which means that he could get round the corner with enough space for Grosjean to remain on the circuit.
I don't know if you've ever actually driven a car, but they have something called a "turning circle". This means that if you take a tighter line in to a corner, you are forced to take a wider line out of it. Maldonado's line forced Hamilton to take a tighter line in to the corner, forcing him closer to the edge of the track coming out of the corner. Maldonado wasn't far enough alongside to actually have the position, so Hamilton wasn't obliged to back off to let him past. F1 would be incredibly dull if someone had to yield their position as soon as another driver pulls alongside.
UniversalTruth
Veteran
On my part, pretty much.
I believe that Maldonado put himself in to a position where he was never going to have enough space to get round the corner, so it was his fault that he left the circuit.
Kaotik seems to think that Hamilton should pull over and stop whenever anyone else is within 10 seconds of his car and let them past.
No, I believe that what Maldonado did was wrong, but what Hamilton did was just as much wrong, both or neither should be penalized, not just Maldonado.
cjo, yes, I drive regularily and I'm aware how cornering works, I also know that F1 is capable of much, much tighter cornering than that, you just go a tad slower then.
The Grosjean-example was just to show that Hamilton wasn't even in the same race exactly first time being overtaken in the corner, and he did manage to give both enough room on the track. I'll need to find replay of that particular overtake to give any opinion on if Hamilton was indeed notably differently positioned or not
Hamilton claims he has no idea what exactly happened there
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LBNOz3rWN3Y
Grosjean and Hamilton were both about half a car width further to the left of the track than Hamilton and Maldonado going in to the corner, and the same to the right coming out. Thats the difference between being on track and being off track.
Going slower to get round the corner tighter is the same as slowing down to let Maldonado past.
His comments afterwards are probably as a result of his more mature attitude this year, rather than anything else.
He did know he'd lose the place regardless, even though he has matured, it doesn't always show on the track side like this incident - his tires were completely gone and according to him felt almost like he had flat tyres on the back, he knew he'd lose the place, why risk by pushing Maldonado out and hold the position perhaps 2-3 corners longer?
He didn't push Maldonado out, did you look at the video I posted?
Maldonado knew he would get the place, why not wait until he was better placed?
Stop ignoring the video I posted. Hamilton turned just as sharply as he did with Grosjean. The difference was that Maldanado insisted on sitting on the racing line rather than moving over, allowing Hamilton the space on the entrance to the corner to give him the space on the exit. Instead of relying on the speed of his car to get him ahead he just put himself in a position where he was always going to leave himself with nowhere to go. Maldonado could have pulled over to the left and both drivers taken the same line as Grosjean and Hamilton did earlier.
I'm pretty sure the rules don't state that you have to yield your position if someone pulls alongside you in the corner.
No, but they state you can't push others off the track.`
I haven't ignored the video
If Hamilton made just as sharp turn, how come there was enough room through the whole chicane/corners for Grosjean to not actually leave the track completely, but in case of Maldonado there wasn't such room?
Sadly the quality of the Grosjean overtake video simply sucks, so the image isn't as clear as it should be
In the Grosjean-video, it's despite quality still clear enough to see that at worst he had his left tires on the kerbs, while in Maldonado-case Hamilton was the one with left side wheels on kerbs.
I haven't ignored the video
If Hamilton made just as sharp turn, how come there was enough room through the whole chicane/corners for Grosjean to not actually leave the track completely, but in case of Maldonado there wasn't such room?
Sadly the quality of the Grosjean overtake video simply sucks, so the image isn't as clear as it should be
In the Grosjean-video, it's despite quality still clear enough to see that at worst he had his left tires on the kerbs, while in Maldonado-case Hamilton was the one with left side wheels on kerbs.
No, but they state you can't push others off the track.`
I haven't ignored the video
If Hamilton made just as sharp turn, how come there was enough room through the whole chicane/corners for Grosjean to not actually leave the track completely, but in case of Maldonado there wasn't such room?
Sadly the quality of the Grosjean overtake video simply sucks, so the image isn't as clear as it should be
In the Grosjean-video, it's despite quality still clear enough to see that at worst he had his left tires on the kerbs, while in Maldonado-case Hamilton was the one with left side wheels on kerbs.
He was also off the racing line, being forced to take an unusual line through the corner.
Look at the Grosjean overtake; he was ahead of Hamilton for most of the corner. He did have his left wheel on the curb, as well as half of the car body at some points.
Maldanado was far further back, and half a car width to the left of "half way on the curb" is indeed "all the way on the curb". The white line is on the track side of the curb, which is why he had left the track.
http://youtu.be/ig4vM6mCGQ8?t=16s
http://youtu.be/6zmeHij13YY?t=17s
Two clips, same point in the turn.
Lastly, does this ring any bells:
He was off the racing line in both incidents, he just decided to go wider in Maldonado case forcing him out.
Yes it rings bells, and isn't even nearly the same case, Maldonado was partly ahead of Hamilton already once (Hamilton wasn't ahead of Massa at any point), Hamilton wasn't going to run "out of track" if he left space (Massa would have ran out from track had he left room on the INSIDE in high speed corner on dirty track), nor would he had to slow to complete stop or even close to such.
Yes it rings bells, and isn't even nearly the same case, Maldonado was partly ahead of Hamilton already once (Hamilton wasn't ahead of Massa at any point), Hamilton wasn't going to run "out of track" if he left space (Massa would have ran out from track had he left room on the INSIDE in high speed corner on dirty track), nor would he had to slow to complete stop or even close to such.
He was ahead once, but not at any substantial point in the corner. I was trying to draw your attention to the fact that you seemed to believe that the driver in front shouldn't yield to the overtaker when it was Hamilton doing the overtaking. They were doing ~60km/h in the corner. That is pretty close to stopped for an F1 car
Grosjean was in front of him, so he hit the brakes so that he didn't collide with him. Maldonado was behind him, so he carried on with his line, and assumed that the overtaker would realise it was a failed attempt and back off.
He was ahead once, but not at any substantial point in the corner. I was trying to draw your attention to the fact that you seemed to believe that the driver in front shouldn't yield to the overtaker when it was Hamilton doing the overtaking. They were doing ~60km/h in the corner. That is pretty close to stopped for an F1 car
Grosjean was in front of him, so he hit the brakes so that he didn't collide with him. Maldonado was behind him, so he carried on with his line, and assumed that the overtaker would realise it was a failed attempt and back off.
At the point where Lewis went so much left that there wasn't room for Maldonado on the track anymore, Grosjean was just about as much behind Hamilton as Maldonado was (0.18 on the video you linked), Grosjeans & Maldonados sidepod at around the "d" of Santander, both have their right front at around the front end of Hamiltons sidepod.
If this incident happened between Massa & Hamilton, I would say Massa was to blame for driving Hamilton out and Massa was to blame for driving into Hamilton after, just like I'm now saying for Hamilton & Maldonado - the one you linked is completely different kind of incident and has no comparison point to this one
