Formula 1 - 2011 Season

[Kaotik]

Well if he's hoping for that he is out of luck. I think more now than ever the current drivers are not that impressed by big names.

I'm very sure they're just as impressed by big names as any other or older driver - the difference is that Hamilton, no matter what he thinks, is not a big name.
Only big name in F1 at the moment is Schumacher, and that still doesn't mean you should jump out of his way.

 

[Phil]

Hamilton only good move on was schmacher in T1. The rest were boneheaded.

Interestingly, the move on Maldonado was exactly the same, with the only difference that Schumacher left a bit of space and Maldonado pulled in earlier. How can one be good (brilliant in Brundles words) and the other not?

 

[tongue_of_colicab]

Maybe because that one time they didn't end up crashing into each other?

 

[Phil]

Maybe because that one time they didn't end up crashing into each other?

I think Alonso put it quite right:

"It is difficult here, there is not much space. There is the risk of 50 per cent you overtake 50 per cent maybe you crash, but this is Monaco and he is leading the championship so he has much more to lose than me, so I was ready to attack. I will try to win the race and if we crash we crash."

All successfull overtakes were hailed as great, but they only did work because one of the cars conceded position or simply left enough room. Schumacher did, Rosberg did, Kamui did, even Hamilton did. If they hadn't, they would have crashed, and given the stewarding during the race, one would have to assume the overtaker would have gotten a penalty.

I don't see the point in criticizing one overtake-attempt in where the car being overtaken turns in early and does not leave room to the car that is next to him and at the same time hail another overtake that succeeded because the car being overtaken did leave just enough room.


JoeSaward has commented on this and provides some good reading:

http://joesaward.wordpress.com/2011/05/31/looking-back-at-monaco/

Hamilton did what he could and pulled off some great moves to claw his way forward at a track where overtaking is virtually impossible, even with all the new systems. This begs a question: while Monaco is an integral part of the Formula 1 scene, and a key element in its brand value, is there really value in a race track where racing is not possible? It was not helped by the fact that the FIA stewards chose to penalise those who attempted to make up ground with risky overtakes. Yes, perhaps they made contact with other cars, but there is no other way to pass at Monaco, unless the other driver cedes. Michael Schumacher showed his intelligence when Lewis went past him, giving Hamilton just enough room once it was clear that they could not go through the corner together. Sadly, Pastor Maldonado did not display the same level of savvy when Hamilton did the same to him. He turned into Hamilton and ended up out of the race – and a bunch of points that Williams really needed were thrown away. And then Hamilton was penalised.

There's also some good stuff by Joe in the comment section under the above link.

 

[Bludd]

But that's just it, Hamilton needs to know who he can pull those manoeuvres on. Trying it on a rookie isn't like trying it on a world champion. He tried it on Massa, who we know is a bit of a hothead (Massa was worse early in his career, he's cooler now, but still. Remember him trying to overtake Liuzzi in Canada last year? Massa basically drove into Liuzzi 3-4 times.)

 

[V3]

Hamilton only good move on was schmacher in T1. The rest were boneheaded.

Even that one. it could easily end up in tears. That move was only good because Schumy managed to avoid him. Hamilton didn't have a very good weekend. I think he was pissed after the qualy and never really recover his mind for the race

 

[tongue_of_colicab]

I'm sorry but I really don't see how you can possibly defend Hamilton and blame Massa or anybody else. Hamilton just did something that couldnt be done. It has nothing to do with Massa turning in early or not leaving room (he was way infront of Hamilton). Not only that, but the rules state the race track is confined between the white lines. Trying to overtake over the curbs like Hamilton did is NOT the racetrack anymore. Also with the steering radius on these cars once you put yourself in a position like Hamilton there really isn't much anyone can do. Steering is so limited you can't avoid bumping into each other.

 

[Phil]

tongue_of_colicab,

Perhaps reading would answer your question as to how one can defend Hamilton. There are multiple posts here from me, posted with pictures to illustrate that it can indeed be looked at from different angles. There's also a very good article posted by JoeSaward that I also think is very reasonable.

You state that Hamilton in the Massa incident tried something that could not be done, however ignore that he did exactly what Schumacher did on him earlier in the race. This just smacks your argument about steering radius and that it could not be done right out the window...

Also, the curb wasn't used for the overtake, it was the only option left to try to avoid a very late block by Massa.

 

[Kaotik]

Phil, one big difference being that if Massa gave room, he would have hit Webber.

 

[RobertR1]

Interestingly, the move on Maldonado was exactly the same, with the only difference that Schumacher left a bit of space and Maldonado pulled in earlier. How can one be good (brilliant in Brundles words) and the other not?

Look at the last 2 sets of pics and the trajectory. Maldonado is going for the apex. Schumacher left him room. In the Maldanado pic, it's Lewis who should have lifted. Maldanado's front wheel is ahead of Lewis' wing and is lined up for the Apex. Lewis is much too tight for the corner because he's refusing to let off and being forced inside as Maldanado goes after the apex for the corner.

Lewis seems to have this "if my front wheel is inline with your rear wheel, the corner is mine" mentality. It comes off as daring and brilliant when it works but when it doesn't, it ends up in disasters.

btw forgotten in all this is Vettel's drive. He had a great pace while in tire management mode. He was playing smart by lifting off in certain areas to break Alonso's rhythm and kill his drives for important corners. Similar to what Alonso did with Schumacher at Imola a few years ago.

 

[Phil]

Phil, one big difference being that if Massa gave room, he would have hit Webber.

Look at the Youtube feed (that I linked further up of the incident). Massa did indeed get too close to Webber in the following up of the corner, which Hamilton used as his opportunity to overtake, as Massa left his inside wide open and would have to brake accoardingly because of traffic ahaed. Massa didn't pull in early to not hit Webber - he pulled in early because Hamilton was coming up his inside. By closing the radius earlier, he effectively got even closer to Webber at an angle (shorter distance traveled) which resulted in him colliding with his front-wing. You can see this if you especially compare this to the previous laps (laps 32/33) where Massa is also held up in those corners, but sticks to the normal racing line with a late turn in.

In this, or the Maldonavo incident, Hamilton was clearly commited to his move. Massa did not yield and turned in, despite seeing Hamilton being next to him. I'm not sure what Massa expected - that Hamilton just disapears? At that point, keep in mind, Hamilton was traveling faster and we can assume was full on the brakes already as to not overshoot the corner.

In the Maldonavo incident it's the same. Hamilton commited himself to the overtake from before the start/finish line. It's the DRS zone - Maldonavo knew fair well that Hamilton was coming. Forgetting for a moment that this is Monaco here - even on a normal track, you are allowed to do your one-move block - to force the overtaker either to chose the inside or the outside line. Once you're commited to your line though, you can't simply turn into the apex of a corner if there's a car beside you. That surely will end in tears.

As I said, I'm not arguing that the moves weren't risky or faultless. In Monaco, no move isn't. It takes two for a successful overtake and I think just as you can expect team-mates to give room, you can also expect rivals to give room. If you don't, don't expect to be entirely faultless.

 

[Kaotik]

In case of Maldonado, moving in sharper towards apex was that one move he's allowed to do, he was on straight racing line with everyone else before that, Hamilton should have lifted up and try again later.

In the Massa case, Massa was clearly going faster and sharper (see the first pic, completely different lines) in than Webber in the first place regardless of Hamilton, only way for him to give Hamilton space would have been crashing with Webber or brake and let Hamilton pass knowingly, and if you do that, what the heck are you doing on a race track to begin with? Before you're actually in the corner already or really side by side, it's the overtakes (Hamilton) responsibility to make sure there's room for him, not the ones being overtaken (Massa).

 

[Phil]

Kaotik,

I'm really not sure what you are suggesting here in the Massa incident. Massa was in the situation he found himself in because he misjudged Webber on that lap. He also didn't cover his inside line accoardingly, hence why Hamilton got there in the first place before he decided to turn and run Hamilton into the kerb whilst also getting closer to Webber and damaging his own front-wing in the process. At some point, you have to concede that you've made an error and pay the price. Hamilton did this when Schumacher passed him.

I really don't get your point of view. Your first reaction to the incidents were that Hamilton should be black flagged for crashing two other drivers. After that did not happen, you were hoping he'd be disqualified for dangerous driving.

As the two incidents have been analyzed properly, it seems more and more are coming to the conclusion that Hamilton does indeed have a point and that Massa and Maldonado at the least, had a part in the blame as well. This at the worst suggests that it isn't a clear/cut situation where the full blame can be directed to a sole driver. Certainly a far cry from black-flagging or disqualifying him.

- Martin Brundle's revised view after proper analysis of the incidents
- Sam Michael (Williams) commenting on the incident, calling it a racing-incident
- Joe Sawards further analysis of the Maldonado incident

As for what Maldonado is allowed to and not. That one move (a block) applies before your opponent is next to you. Certainly not when he already is.

 

[Kaotik]

When you're ahead you get to choose your line, especially if you haven't made any blocking moves yet, there has been countless similar cases in F1 over the years, and it's the overtakes job to pull out in time if you're not sure there's time

Sure there's several people on Hamiltons side, even ex-drivers, but you need to remember they're all british too, which might make them pull a bit to home team

Like I said earlier, for example Mika Salo's (ex-F1 driver) view was that Hamilton shouldn't have been punished perhaps on the Massa incident, but the Maldonado case left no questions in his opinion - Hamilton rammed straight to him.

Massa might have misjudged Webber, but it was clear way before the corner that they were driving on different lanes, Hamilton should have known there's no way in hell there's room for him in the corner too even if he somehow manages to get his front ahead of Massas rear tyre - heck, even without Webber on there, at the speed Hamilton came in the only way for Massa to avoid collision because of Ham's action would have been going to way, way out of his racing line to outside and almost to complete stop since Hamilton, at that speed, would have nearly been hitting the outside wall after the curve if Massa's car wasn't there to slow him down after the hit

 

[Bludd]

Virgin fires Nick Wirth and ends cooperation with Wirth Research.

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/91924

A lot of technical directors on the market soon.

 

[tongue_of_colicab]

So the ''we can build a f1 car withouth a windtunnel'' project failed? Can't say I'm surprised though. F1 cars are so complex imho you can't get around with atleast putting them into a windtunnel from time to time just to check if what your CFD model is telling you is actually true.

 

[Bludd]

Well, it obviously wasn't working fast enough for Virgin.

 

[nutball]

Turbulence is a bitch.

 

[WhiningKhan]

Virgin fires Nick Wirth and ends cooperation with Wirth Research.

That's not Niklaus Wirth, is it?

 

[Davros]

on bbc2 on sunday is a documentary on the legend Murray walker
it will be on iplayer if you can use a u.k proxy or something
http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/