Megadrive1988
Veteran
I agree also, and thanks for the insightful post AlStrong.
Fact: Nintendo to release HD console + controllers with built-in screen late 2012
- Thread starter patsu
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I agree also, and thanks for the insightful post AlStrong.
Downclocking is pretty normal in consoles I think simply for heat. You're not going to push the bleeding mhz edge like a dedicated PC card can.
Obvious example is Xenos+RSX clocked at 500, when there where similar PC GPU's already doing 650mhz at the time.
Megadrive1988
Veteran
My dream would be the RV770 clocked at 750 MHz on 28nm process, but that just probably isn't going to happen. We'll probably be lucky to see 2x the performance of Xenos at this point, but we'll wait and see how things shape up.
The chosen clock rates were more because of yield than heat.
How do you know that?
Anyways it seems pretty obvious, high end PC cards can be and often are loud, hot, power sucking etc. with huge fans, they can just generally be bad citizens much moreso than a console. They get to live in a more open space as well.
If you get a high end card in next consoles, it wont be at the bleeding clock edge.
You never get a high end chip in consoles. A high end architecture maybe, but not high end clocks because those chips cost too much.
Since the thread has been talking about r770 consider when it launched you had the 4870 and 4850. A console that launched at that time would have chosen the 4850 because the manufacturer wouldn't want to throw away half of the functional chips because they couldn't run at the targeted clock speed.
The fact that these lower clocked cards run cooler is a benefit, but not the primary reason to use them.
ALStrong,
Laptops don't overheat if they have been made properly.
I have had a 15 inch gaming laptop (same GPU as the Nvidia 9800) that never had overheating problems and it was a 2009 model, Only one year after the desktop part of the same speed came out.
The GPU had a TDP of 65W, when something like the Radeon HD 6950M (which should be as fast or faster than a high end R770) only has a TDP of 50W!
50 Watts TDP should fit into the Wii U no problem.
Note that this is 100% from a tech standpoint.
From a price standpoint I think Nintendo does not want to spend the money for it and has wasted the money on that gimmicky controller instead.
Laptops don't overheat if they have been made properly.
I have had a 15 inch gaming laptop (same GPU as the Nvidia 9800) that never had overheating problems and it was a 2009 model, Only one year after the desktop part of the same speed came out.
The GPU had a TDP of 65W, when something like the Radeon HD 6950M (which should be as fast or faster than a high end R770) only has a TDP of 50W!
50 Watts TDP should fit into the Wii U no problem.
Note that this is 100% from a tech standpoint.
From a price standpoint I think Nintendo does not want to spend the money for it and has wasted the money on that gimmicky controller instead.
If you can't bin the parts (ie Nintendo has no venue to sell or use them), you aim low because any part that doesn't meet spec, is useless.
If... if... if... So what are they doing wrong now with the reports of the early units overheating? The other thing I'd like to point out is that we haven't even begun to consider the TDP for the CPU.
What were the ambient conditions? How long were you playing at 100% load? Can you say the same for every household and weather condition? Stuffing it in a home theater setup behind the window? I wish it were so easy as your single example. I don't have problems with my laptop in the winter. I sure as hell can if the house jumps to 30C and I want to play for several hours. I know when to quit when I can feel the bottom burning my finger. How loud was your laptop as well? Is that acceptable for a console or much less, the WiiU? How much was the laptop? How big of a heatsink are they going to need (i.e. extra costs, extra weight, extra shipping weight...)? Can it be done for under $300?
I don't mean to be snarky with these questions, but these are important considerations that go beyond just looking at "oh another device can do it IF there's enough money thrown at it, IF it has much sturdier construction, IF it's not playing games 100% of the time, IF we just reduce clock speeds, IF we ignore that there are hugely different ambient temperatures that people can game in, IF we ignore that Nintendo is quite possibly wasting its money producing a larger chip and just clocking it down.......".
And that's it. I'm done with the thread.
Considering how ridicilously loud the disk drive was in XB360 I don't think having relatively loud cooling in the first (couple) of HW iterations is out of question.
Ah thanks makes perfect sense.:smile:
D
Deleted member 13524
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So you'll agree that a 40nm shrink of a RV770 @ 500MHz would consume as much as, if not less than a Juniper @ 500MHz? And a Juniper @ 500MHz pulls ~22W.
The power numbers I've been mentioning is full load at continuous operation.
Unless you think "TDP" might be somehow related to "idle" or "load during 1m30s"...
The discussion has been about the GPU, either it could be possible to put a 25-30W GPU inside that case. If you get another 25-30W CPU, odds are that it would be possible.
Pics have shown active cooling with a ~40mm fan. With rumours of overheating consoles and new units arriving this month, much may have changed in the meanwhile.
You should also take into account that power consumption doesn't scale linearly with clock speeds, or transistor count.
Lookng at the mobile Evergreen versions, the 500MHz Juniper (800-40-16) with GDDR3 consumes less than the 650MHz Redwood (400-20-8), also with GDDR3.
So there's a really high chance that a ~800MHz RV730 would consume a lot more power than a ~400MHz RV770 while the performance would be about the same.
Yes, of course those (and a lot more) factors need to come in.
Yet, I stay with my opinion that, given the current rumours and info, it should be a reasonably down-clocked RV770.
BTW, I don't really know why you're mentioning it'll use GDDR5. For all I know, a 256bit DDR3 UMA could be perfectly possible. The extra PCB layers would come in handy for a supposedly small PCB.
No one's stopping a console to use a GPU or a CPU with a few disabled units for redundancy, like we've seen with the PS3.
I think the Edram is for the CPU it should improve the latency problems, over PS360 CPUs, even more if they use GDDR5.
On the amount of RAM, GDDR5 is todays norm and probably the cheapest of all the RAM in the future so it makes sense to get 1Gb (pretty usual in cheap cards too), latency wouldn't be a problem too. It is in the midterm the best buy after all.
On a 128b bus at todays speeds it would give ~60GB of bw that should be more than enough IMO.
Megadrive1988
Veteran
That's nearly 3x the main memory bandwidth that Xbox 360 has (22.4 GB/sec). Which would be great.
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Because it would be poor design otherwise.
Yes, you have highend PC cards that are clocked higher than what you find in most consoles. But those off the shelves highend cards are unfit for use for consoles because of the power consumption, the huge power envelope needed and the inability of those chips to be manufactured in volume. If you are designing a console, the worse thing you can do is simply take one of those chips and significantly downclock it to meet your needs.
All you are doing is reducing performance for the sake of heat when more than likely there exist silicon thats smaller (thus cheaper) and will fall within the your power envelope needs and meet the same performance characteristics. It ends up being a waste of silicon that you still have to pay to manufacture.
You also have to remember that in late 2005 most ATI cards ran between 500 and 600 Mhz. The highest end cards were mostly cherry picked GPUs that could run higher than normal and simply paired with faster memory in comparsion to lesser cards with the same GPU clocked slower. I doubt it was very feasible to produce a high yield high volume 90nm ATI GPU that clocked significantly faster than 500 Mhz in 2005.
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This is more problematic for Nintendo:
http://www.gamesindustry.biz/articles/2011-07-20-iwatas-views-no-reflection-of-what-consumers-want
http://www.gamesindustry.biz/articles/2011-07-20-iwatas-views-no-reflection-of-what-consumers-want
my Asus A42JA (14inch laptop) i5-460, Radeon Mobility HD 5730/6500 seris (the ATi CCC say like that, weird).
Play BFBC2 = aftar almost 1 hour laptop overheat and hibernate itself
Play all other games = noisy, CPU max about 101c, GPU about 70c on some game, 90c on some game.
that in south-east-asia, where everyday temperature is hot (about 35c at noon), and a lot of dusts.
so the new wii if have spec slower than that, in a box like the one displayed in E3. Maybe the heat can be no problem with proper cooling. But the fan still can be loud if the console is stored in tight space.
Play BFBC2 = aftar almost 1 hour laptop overheat and hibernate itself
Play all other games = noisy, CPU max about 101c, GPU about 70c on some game, 90c on some game.
that in south-east-asia, where everyday temperature is hot (about 35c at noon), and a lot of dusts.
so the new wii if have spec slower than that, in a box like the one displayed in E3. Maybe the heat can be no problem with proper cooling. But the fan still can be loud if the console is stored in tight space.
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