Electric Vehicle Thread!

[Deleted member 2197]

I've never had full FSD do road driving, but it wouldn't bother me if I was doing a long trip like Albuquerque is doing here, sometimes the roads are just empty and you're not in a rush to go anywhere, let it take over and rest your eyes and conserve that energy.

OT question but does car insurance coverage include accidents involving full FSD?

 

[iroboto]

Remember you are definitely not allowed to rest your eyes.

Stay safe

And I freely admit that having all the automatic bits is safer, but it is not as capable as tesla let's it try to be and the user is responsible for being aware and paying attention. Personally all I want is on ramp to off ramp and many systems are pretty capable for that but none allow them to be used like that without driver paying attention.

Lol. Rest not close them

 

[iroboto]

OT question but does car insurance coverage include accidents involving full FSD?

i think for most insurance companies driver is at fault. You still can take over from what I understand.

Manufacturers would have to work with insurance companies if they were to take legal responsibility for liability with FSD.

 

[Albuquerque]

It seems weird that your say inarguably when they're are plenty who will argue against your statement in the press and in society.
Example and the mapped roads have doubled since that review.

If you said that Tesla allows it to behave more riskily and operate in more conditions people would not argue. Super cruise is just as good as FSD IMO and many say it is better, however it is much more limited in what it is allowed to do. Tesla keeps removing sensors to increase profit margins.

So by drastically limiting scope, super cruise can say they're better at a very small slice of what FSD can do.

Yeah, I personally call that "arguable" for sure.

 

[Albuquerque]

i think for most insurance companies driver is at fault. You still can take over from what I understand.

Manufacturers would have to work with insurance companies if they were to take legal responsibility for liability with FSD.

And yes, the driver is at fault if they allow FSD to do something stupid, entirely because FSD requires continuous driver monitoring and input if the car can see you're not paying attention. For those of us who have driven a Tesla (I can tell by some responses that a lot of folks who are replying here have not) the car watches you watch the road. If you pick up your phone, or if you glance away from the front windshield for more than a few seconds the car will require you to both face forward and move the steering wheel. If you do not, the car will disengage FSD and slow to a stop.

And if the car knocks you out of FSD for not paying attention three times, it will fully dis-enroll you from the FSD program.

 

[wco81]

Anyone who's willing to give Musk $12k (or maybe it's more now or will be soon) for FSD is entirely culpable if they use FSD and it causes bodily injury or property damage.

Too many gullible people with too much money these days.

 

[orangpelupa]

And yes, the driver is at fault if they allow FSD to do something stupid, entirely because FSD requires continuous driver monitoring and input if the car can see you're not paying attention. For those of us who have driven a Tesla (I can tell by some responses that a lot of folks who are replying here have not) the car watches you watch the road. If you pick up your phone, or if you glance away from the front windshield for more than a few seconds the car will require you to both face forward and move the steering wheel. If you do not, the car will disengage FSD and slow to a stop.

And if the car knocks you out of FSD for not paying attention three times, it will fully dis-enroll you from the FSD program.

Does it still rely on steering torque when the cabin camera can't see, and does it still requires steering torque when the cabin camera can see you are paying attention?

 

[Sxotty]

So by drastically limiting scope, super cruise can say they're better at a very small slice of what FSD can do.

Yeah, I personally call that "arguable" for sure.

I get the feeling you want this to be the way things are. There are plenty of publications that say super cruise is better. There are many reviews that say they are comparable. There are plenty that fawn on both and many Elon fans. None of that really matters though. You can certainly say FSD is better at things that other vehicles are not allowed to do by their manufacturers but that is not a terribly high bar to clear.

 

[Albuquerque]

Anyone who's willing to give Musk $12k (or maybe it's more now or will be soon) for FSD is entirely culpable if they use FSD and it causes bodily injury or property damage.

Too many gullible people with too much money these days.

You need to do more reading on this topic. On a per-miles driven basis, autonomous is involved in a full order of magnitude less accidents versus humans driving.

Does it still rely on steering torque when the cabin camera can't see, and does it still requires steering torque when the cabin camera can see you are paying attention?

In the modern version of FSD, if the camera is disabled it reverts to EAP only mode. If the camera is active and can see you, and if you're paying attention, the frequency of having to touch the steering wheel is pretty low. In just EAP mode, it seemed like once every half hour maybe?

 

[Albuquerque]

I get the feeling you want this to be the way things are. There are plenty of publications that say super cruise is better. There are many reviews that say they are comparable. There are plenty that fawn on both and many Elon fans. None of that really matters though. You can certainly say FSD is better at things that other vehicles are not allowed to do by their manufacturers but that is not a terribly high bar to clear.

It is indeed a terribly high bar to clear -- until those other options can actually compete in the space where FSD works, then what's the argument for them being equal or better? I said it was arguably so, and you've thoroughly agreed to my point! But yes, go ahead and reduce scope radically until the venn diagram of competitors is able to 100% overlap with FSD and -- tada -- a competitor arises! You know, for the things that they can actually compete with.

And as I've mentioned already a few times in this thread, Elon is a complete shitbag and will never get any defense from me. My decision to purchase a Tesla was almost entirely driven by their charging network and honestly the availability of their cars in the price range I elected to make my purchase. Good luck ever getting a Q4, for example.

 

[Davros]

My decision to purchase a Tesla

Why? when you could have bought a G-wiz

 

[Sxotty]

On a per-miles driven basis, autonomous is involved in a full order of magnitude less accidents versus humans driving.

In the modern version of FSD, if the camera is disabled it reverts to EAP only mode.

This wasn't directed at me and I agree it is safer but if I recall correctly those stats are misleading because it compares a bunch of highway and divided highway driving. Perhaps it was a different problem, but there was some issue. Obviously super cruise would be way worse in that error metric since it is only highway miles.

My prior point is GM owns cruise. They have quite good AV tech. They could allow super cruise to do way more. They have the ability and choose not to. Whether that is a good and correct choice or a money grab or a risk aversion thing I don't know.

The first company that tells me I can drive onto the freeway engage whatever they call their system and read a book etc is the one I'm excited by.

 

[orangpelupa]

It is indeed a terribly high bar to clear -- until those other options can actually compete in the space where FSD works, then what's the argument for them being equal or better? I said it was arguably so, and you've thoroughly agreed to my point! But yes, go ahead and reduce scope radically until the venn diagram of competitors is able to 100% overlap with FSD and -- tada -- a competitor arises! You know, for the things that they can actually compete with.

And as I've mentioned already a few times in this thread, Elon is a complete shitbag and will never get any defense from me. My decision to purchase a Tesla was almost entirely driven by their charging network and honestly the availability of their cars in the price range I elected to make my purchase. Good luck ever getting a Q4, for example.

FSD is in its own category IMO.

Wymo is full on level 4, but not available for common people to purchase.
super cruise is focused on specific locations,
FSD is anything everything everywhere all at once.

so super cruise seems to be better on specific locations than FSD. but super cruise cannot beat FSD in city driving, as super cruise doesnt work for city driving. and so on.

thats what i meant by "Feature domain". FSD have way more feature domains than other companies. other companies may be better than FSD on specific feature domains.

the vision+lidar+radar FSD from mobileye maybe have similar feature domains wih tesla FSD. but currently it has only been relesed for some cars in china. not enough reviews

EDIT:
btw with my awesome luck with electronics and software, i wonder what would happen if i ever enter a car with ADAS or even worse... self driving feature?

they instantly ran away as soon as they saw me?

 

[Albuquerque]

My prior point is GM owns cruise. They have quite good AV tech. They could allow super cruise to do way more. They have the ability and choose not to. Whether that is a good and correct choice or a money grab or a risk aversion thing I don't know.

The first company that tells me I can drive onto the freeway engage whatever they call their system and read a book etc is the one I'm excited by.

The challenge with Super Cruise, as it stands today, as it's completely non-scalable. A human (or rather, a group of humans) hand-create pathing for the car to follow. If the road needs to change, even so much as construction barrels being placed out to block a lane, Super Cruise drops out because it can't determine what is wrong. Tesla will lane-follow basically forever, whether it's road cones, concrete abutments, cars being parked in the way, whatever.

Again, the venn-diagram overlap of what FSD is trying to solve versus what Super Cruise does by coloring inside very specific lines is dramatically different... And since Tesla isn't trying to solve the problem by requiring humans to build each individual path, I suspect they're going to be in a better place for figuring out the future where you can read your book while the car drives you where it needs to go.

About reading your book: truly and honestly for freeway driving, the rental '21 Model Y we drove to Benton Harbor MI required basically no input from us outside of making sure we were actually paying attention. It happily changed lanes around slow people, it smoothly avoided lane closures on I65 south and I57 north, it went around a broken down semi truck in the right lane on I40 east, it drops you off at your exit at the stopsign ready for you to drive into the city streets. And this is just EAP, it's not the FSD functionality. You could probably fudge it and buy an ankle weight and strap it to the steering wheel and EAP would do exactly what you want right now today without ever kicking you off...

It really sounds as if you've literally never driven a Tesla with EAP. Before you get a lot more opionated on the tech, I think you owe it to yourself to try one out. The ONLY reason I committed to buying a Tesla, even with the expensive FSD option enabled, is because we rented one first to vet if it is just shitty internet opinions or if the tech really holds up.

The tech really holds up. At least for our use case.

Edit: oh, and our VIN was assigned on Tuesday. Car gets here on the 29th. W00t! Aftermarket forged wheels also arrived yesterday along with the new BT 5.0 TPMS sensors so they'll be ready to slap onto the car as soon as we receive it. Discount Tire has been holding our Michelin Pilot A/S 4's since last month waiting for everything to arrive, heh...

 

[Albuquerque]

...lots of stuff I totally agree with....

they instantly ran away as soon as they saw me?

Dude, I love reading about your experiences with technology I'm really super curious what would truly happen! Knowing your luck you would either A: somehow unwittingly participate in and win a cannonball run rally, or B: it would drive you straight into a lake, but only the shallow part so you'd be unharmed and able to escape, and then it would somehow back out of the lake and drive off without you

 

[Sxotty]

The challenge with Super Cruise, as it stands today, as it's completely non-scalable. A human (or rather, a group of humans) hand-create pathing for the car to follow. If the road needs to change, even so much as construction barrels being placed out to block a lane, Super Cruise drops out because it can't determine what is wrong. Tesla will lane-follow basically forever, whether it's road cones, concrete abutments, cars being parked in the way, whatever.

Again, the venn-diagram overlap of what FSD is trying to solve versus what Super Cruise does by coloring inside very specific lines is dramatically different... And since Tesla isn't trying to solve the problem by requiring humans to build each individual path, I suspect they're going to be in a better place for figuring out the future where you can read your book while the car drives you where it needs to go.

I am talking about their CRUISE subsidiary with autonomous taxis in SF. Not the super cruise feature. My point is GM owns the tech already to allow their vehicles to do more. They do not deploy it. Supposedly they will add more when they release "Ultra Cruise". They need to hire some better marketers. Their names are bad.

About reading your book: truly and honestly for freeway driving, the rental '21 Model Y we drove to Benton Harbor MI required basically no input from us outside of making sure we were actually paying attention. It happily changed lanes around slow people, it smoothly avoided lane closures on I65 south and I57 north, it went around a broken down semi truck in the right lane on I40 east, it drops you off at your exit at the stop sign ready for you to drive into the city streets. And this is just EAP, it's not the FSD functionality. You could probably fudge it and buy an ankle weight and strap it to the steering wheel and EAP would do exactly what you want right now today without ever kicking you off...

My friend has a Model y that I have driven. He scares me a bit now because when he drives a regular vehicle without all the baby sitting, he seems dangerous I know that both vehicles can already do what I said for the most part safely. The issue is both companies say you ARE responsible for paying attention. I do not want to be the guy watching harry potter driving under a semi in my Tesla. (Yes I realize that was mobile eye and it is way better now and that it was not an interstate either).

I also do not want to cheat the system to make it work. I want them to guarantee that it will work and that I will not be liable if it is stupid. You see what I mean? No company is willing to do that yet. Until that happens then for me, they are pretty much the same.

Interstate travel seems like it should be solvable, but there are many issues that they still have not solved and therefore will not deal with. What happened with the guy in Fontana? I see all the articles about him getting killed and the suggestion that he had on AP, but nothing from far after the fact with real answers is popping up.

Autopilot and “Full Self-Driving” are not fully autonomous and that drivers must pay attention and be ready to intervene at any time.

That means I do not get to relax and read even if it might be safe to do so 99.9% of the time. The 0.1% matters.

 

[orangpelupa]

Article on Reuters that I forgot the link reports that Toyota may be scrapping their e tenga platform for a brand new platform, designed from the ground up for BEV.

Rough estimates for the platform completion in 5 yrs.

---

Maybe that's why Honda is in some kind of panic mode and working together with 3 different companies to make new BEV platforms. Japan car companies are waaaay behind.

Maybe Honda was hoping that surely at least one of the new platforms gonna struck gold.

 

[wco81]

Here's the Reuter's article.

Terashi's team is considering an option to prolong e-TNGA's usefulness by coupling it with new tecnnologies, three of the sources said.

Terashi could also propose to retire e-TNGA more quickly and opt for an EV-dedicated platform engineered from the ground up. That could take roughly five years for new models, two of the sources said. "There is little time to waste," said one.

Toyota is working with suppliers and considering factory innovations to bring down costs like Tesla's Giga Press, a massive casting machine that has streamlined work in Tesla plants.

One area under review is a more comprehensive approach to an EV's thermal management - combining, for example, passenger air conditioning and electric powertrain temperature control - that Tesla has already mobilised, the sources said.

This could allow Toyota to reduce the size and weight of an EV battery pack and cut costs by thousands of dollars per vehicle, making it a "top priority" for Toyota suppliers Denso and Aisin, one of the sources familiar with the matter said. Denso (6902.T) and Aisin (7259.T) had no immediate comment.

Exclusive: Toyota scrambles for EV reboot with eye on Tesla

Toyota is considering a reboot of its electric-car strategy to better compete in a booming market it has been slow to enter, and has halted some work on existing EV projects, four people with knowledge of the still-developing plans said.

www.reuters.com

 

[Davros]

 

[Deleted member 2197]

New Jersey Legislators Want to Ban In-Car Subscriptions for Pre-Installed Hardware - ExtremeTech

If made into law, the bill would prohibit dealers and vehicle manufacturers in New Jersey from even offering customers subscription services for hardware like heated seats.

www.extremetech.com