Cars...

Frank

Certified not a majority
Veteran
Well, with the eco-crazy around here, cars (and especially leased ones) have to be environmental friendly and efficient, first and foremost. Which is a PITA if you want to lease a sporty one. Who cares about stupid stuff like a Toyota Prius, which is financed for more than half through taxes by now. And, while very interesting technically, the focus is on slow and efficiency. Although the next model will have a bigger ICE, but still no diesel...

Anyway, VAG (Volkswagen) really got it this time. They introduced some sleek engines, like the 1.8 TSI: 160 hp, 250 Nm, from 1500 up to 6200 rpm it delivers. That's pretty good and sporty, to European standards. Or the 1.4 TSI 118kw: 150 hp, 240 Nm, and it doesn't only have a turbocompressor, but a mechanical compressor as well. Now that's the ticket! Small, low emissions, efficent and high power.

And how about the DSG automatic transmission: it's like having two gearboxes, the first one with shifts 1, 3 and 5, and the other with 2, 4, and 6. Both with their own clutch, and all computer controlled. So, if you start in first gear, the second gearbox is already in second, but not yet engaged. If it becomes time to shift, just slam the second coupling down, while tearing the plates of the first apart. Not only much more sporty than a regular automatic, but even better than a manual, and more efficient than both to boost.

I'm pretty impressed by the Skoda Octavia 1.8 TSI DSG. It's a great, sporty car, low emissions, efficient, yada, yada. Great value for money. Except, it only offers AWD on the combi (5-door) model (bah).

And even the 1.4 TSI 118pk, while very efficent and even having a "most efficent" label, doesn't beat the average turbo-diesle on efficiency or emissions. The car gets that label when below 140 g/km for petrol, while you need to get below 90 g/km for diesel, which will carry you more miles on that liter at the same time. Even with the required exhaust-cleaners for the diesel. Pretty stupid, if you ask me. What is behind making rules like that?


With all-electric (Tesla Model S) still out in the future, and our governments demanding we only buy and lease very small, cheap, efficent and especially hybrid cars, you get those hybrid cars almost for free when leasing one, while you pay more for the efficient turbo petrol and diesel ones. They're more efficient, cheaper, lighter, greener and all that, but you'll still pay more. Really.

Ah, well, I guess no politicians and only a small percentage of the public knows or cares about what's underneath, looks and hype are everything.
 
There are some rather hilarious GM/Chrysler sales going on right now, the dealers are really caught between a rock and a hardplace.

40% off isn't that unusual to see, but with the exception of the Vette I don't really like any of 'em. :(
 
well chrysler has all those big V8 based cars (i.e charger). They're pretty fast. and GM has got the saturn sky, rwd and plenty of power. I'd be happy with either.
 
Everyone on the planet says American cars handle like shit but I've yet to see definitive proof of it. The charger is very heavy though (4k pounds) so that'd be working against it. Still though, who goes to the track? I would if I owned a sports car but the vast vast majority just drive around town and do the ocasional stop sign/red light drag.
 
I go to the track quite frequently in the summer. :)

Chryslers by and large do handle like shit. There's just not much to like about them. They are weigh a lot, handle badly, and get really bad gas mileage. They also aren't that quick from a stop or a rolling start. This includes models with the Hemi V8's. The Viper of course is different and a pretty decent supercar, but there are many better out there from competitors.

GM has some decent cars. The Saturn Sky/Pontiac Solstice is decent and fun but definitely not my cup of tea. The Vette is pretty quick and has outstanding handling if driven right and relatively easy to drive right. Vettes are also good from a rolling start or a stop.

Not much good to say about Fords. Never been a fan of the Mustang or the car company in general.

I gotta say Nissan is probably the front runner for level entry supercar territory. The Skyline GTR is a beast unto itself and its AWD system is AMAZING. Getting ready to put some bigger turbos in it.

I respect Ferraris but do not prefer them, much rather enjoy Lamborghinis.

And to be on topic: Frank, that outright stinks that you guys get big tax breaks on Priuses and other hybrids but not fuel efficient diesel cars that get better MPG. I would wish there would be tax breaks on both so that more buyers get fuel efficiency in a car of their choice.
 
My Miata gets 28 mpg around town flooring it all the time and drifts like a champ with stability turned off...my A3 Turbo 1.8 gets 29 on the highway...most US cars *do* handle like crap next to a RWD German car or stiff-footed Nissan, but the US has a lot of parts with no curves where a drag racer is fun. Didn't Chrysler make a TDI 300 in Europe that was a serious scorcher with good mileage? They never sold it stateside.
 
Well, with the eco-crazy around here, cars (and especially leased ones) have to be environmental friendly and efficient, first and foremost. Which is a PITA if you want to lease a sporty one. Who cares about stupid stuff like a Toyota Prius, which is financed for more than half through taxes by now. And, while very interesting technically, the focus is on slow and efficiency. Although the next model will have a bigger ICE, but still no diesel...

Anyway, VAG (Volkswagen) really got it this time. They introduced some sleek engines, like the 1.8 TSI: 160 hp, 250 Nm, from 1500 up to 6200 rpm it delivers. That's pretty good and sporty, to European standards. Or the 1.4 TSI 118kw: 150 hp, 240 Nm, and it doesn't only have a turbocompressor, but a mechanical compressor as well. Now that's the ticket! Small, low emissions, efficent and high power.

I think diesels will be rated differently in the future, but right now I think they are being rated more strict because their fumes aren't that clean, and even with fine dust particle filters installed now its not yet clear that sufficiently helps (or if these filters emit even worse particles themselves) or that there are still plenty of other particles being emitted. I know this may seem unfair, but if Diesels turn out to be truly cleaner I'm sure you'll see changes in tax awards

Mind you, I think you haven't read the requirements carefully enough? 107 is the lowest limit for regular fuel emissions, not 140 - that's for the 20% tax. Above 140 it's 25% and below 107 is 14%. And yes, that's really cool for me. ;) I pay something like 127 euros a month for my basic model lease Prius (26k).

And how about the DSG automatic transmission: it's like having two gearboxes, the first one with shifts 1, 3 and 5, and the other with 2, 4, and 6. Both with their own clutch, and all computer controlled. So, if you start in first gear, the second gearbox is already in second, but not yet engaged. If it becomes time to shift, just slam the second coupling down, while tearing the plates of the first apart. Not only much more sporty than a regular automatic, but even better than a manual, and more efficient than both to boost.

How is that better than a cvt? (honest question)

And even the 1.4 TSI 118pk, while very efficent and even having a "most efficent" label, doesn't beat the average turbo-diesle on efficiency or emissions. The car gets that label when below 140 g/km for petrol, while you need to get below 90 g/km for diesel, which will carry you more miles on that liter at the same time. Even with the required exhaust-cleaners for the diesel. Pretty stupid, if you ask me. What is behind making rules like that?

Again, that seems wrong - it's 107 g/km I believe for regular fuel.
 
There are some rather hilarious GM/Chrysler sales going on right now, the dealers are really caught between a rock and a hardplace.

40% off isn't that unusual to see, but with the exception of the Vette I don't really like any of 'em. :(

The pontiac G8 is not bad at all.
 
The G8 is good but still very heavy. Comparable to the charger in a lot of ways. Really i think people are way too hard on American cars. We have some good cars. Where's the nationalistic pride people? In japan people buy japanese products to support japnese industry, we need more of that in NA (i guess it's too late now though lol).
 
The G8 is good but still very heavy. Comparable to the charger in a lot of ways. Really i think people are way too hard on American cars. We have some good cars. Where's the nationalistic pride people? In japan people buy japanese products to support japnese industry, we need more of that in NA (i guess it's too late now though lol).

Yeah I wasn't saying it was the best ever, but I only have experience with so many vehicles :). I would certainly not mind if I had one given to me. As it is though since I have a WRX I would not buy another sporty vehicle probably, but rather a more fuel efficient one if I had to get another car.
 
I think diesels will be rated differently in the future, but right now I think they are being rated more strict because their fumes aren't that clean, and even with fine dust particle filters installed now its not yet clear that sufficiently helps (or if these filters emit even worse particles themselves) or that there are still plenty of other particles being emitted. I know this may seem unfair, but if Diesels turn out to be truly cleaner I'm sure you'll see changes in tax awards

Mind you, I think you haven't read the requirements carefully enough? 107 is the lowest limit for regular fuel emissions, not 140 - that's for the 20% tax. Above 140 it's 25% and below 107 is 14%. And yes, that's really cool for me. ;) I pay something like 127 euros a month for my basic model lease Prius (26k).

As I understand things, the very newest TDIs from Volkswagen which are just now making their way into cars (and therefore in the future, Audi, Seat, Skoda) capture the particulate matter in a filter then periodically adjust the fuel mix in the engine to burn the particulate stuff away. These engines also reduce NOx emissions too, IIRC.

As for the idea that American cars are poor, here in the UK there certainly is the view that they tend to be too large and not necessarily well-made. Most reviews seem to complain about the ride quality compared to many European/Japanese cars, possibly because the suspension of US cars often tends to be more basic in design?

That said, one of my friends drives a Chrysler 300 which he is pleased with - he does about 60 miles a day to get to work and back, most of it on the motorway, so the sheer size of the car isn't a problem for him. That doesn't, of course, stop us taking the piss of him driving a Bentley-wannabe! ;)
 
Mind you, I think you haven't read the requirements carefully enough? 107 is the lowest limit for regular fuel emissions, not 140 - that's for the 20% tax. Above 140 it's 25% and below 107 is 14%. And yes, that's really cool for me. ;) I pay something like 127 euros a month for my basic model lease Prius (26k).
Last I read about it, it's less than 140 g/km for 20% and less than 100 g/km for 14% and hybrids (IIRC, for them it doesn't matter how much they emit), which don't pay car and road tax either. All of those get the "A" label. That might have changed a bit (it's all pretty fluid).

But there is a list with cars that comply, and if your car isn't on the list, you pay 25% regardless. So, for a car like the VW Golf 1.4 TSI DSG that emit 138 g/km you still pay 25% untill they add it to that list. I read somewhere that the government is working on making that process automatic: if it complies with the rules, it might automatically get the tax reductions in the future.

How is that better than a cvt? (honest question)
A regular CVT has problems with friction and the torque of even a medium-size engine. Newer ones use a chain instead of a belt, which helps a bit, but it's still a difficult problem.

The Prius CVT isn't a regular one:

1119495804_28041.GIF


It transfers power electrically, through the battery and two electric motors instead. Very neat, very low friction, very short response times, but it loses power through conversion from mechanical to and from electric, which happens at all times. Still, probably better than a conventional CVT or automatic, but not as good as a mechanical gearbox.

A DSG is like a mechanical gearbox (two, actually), with the computer controlling the clutches, shifting and engine rpm. It's better than the best human driver, and it makes the whole process very fluid. It'll accelerate a FWD car from standstill faster than anything else, and is easy switchable between economic and sporty. But it won't be able to do that completely fluid (you hear the shifting and the changing of the rpm just like with a manual gearbox), and so it isn't able to always keep the engine running at the most efficient rpm. But with a mechanical compressor to improve the reaction time of the turbo and direct fuel injection, it's almost as good, with less losses.

That VW Golf 1.4 TSI DSG would be more economic than the Prius, if tuned to the same power characteristics.

But then again, a Prius could be much more sporty, when tuned like that Golf (and when adding an extra battery pack). Not as fast, but with more torque.
 
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I dont really care about being eco-friendly. All i care about is how fast the thing can go, how it handles and how it looks.

The G8 is good but still very heavy. Comparable to the charger in a lot of ways. Really i think people are way too hard on American cars. We have some good cars.

There are 2 good cars that have came out of the USA, the GT40 (originial one) and the Corvette Z06.

The Vette is amazingly good value for money, and they spend ages with the car on nurburgring in germany, so it handles very nicely aswell. Interior wise, the quality is piss poor, and the whole thing doesn't seem to be build to last.

Other than that, what ive tried and seen is terrible. The C300 was build on a 10 year old Merc E-class platform, and that old e-class still has better handling and comfort.

Some choices that american manufaturers take are just mind blowingly stupid.

Why on earth do you build so many cars with 4+litre v8 engines when it spits out 150-200hp? All you get is terrible milage and increased weight, might aswell just put a 4-sylinder turbocharged 1,8 litre.

Handling is ridiculus is most american cars.

The worst, is that all your cars seems to be build to last for 3 years. I guess its because you crazy americans switch cars every 3 years (which to me is mindblowing, but thats another story).

I have yet to be in an american with a good looking interior, or an interior of high quality and finish for that matter. The material choices and finish makes it all look terrible. Whats up with putting plastic into a $100k car interior?

Doesn't even matter how much your willing to spend on an american car either.
Material choices and interior build quality is allways, atleast in my experience, waaaaaaaay worse than european counterparts. Lots of plastic, things seems to not fit correctly etc.

Driven the Escalade? Oh-my-god what a humoungous piece of crap that is. Handling is good, until you have to stop going straight and take a turn! The interior looks awful, lots of plastic makes it feel super cheap.

An european counterpart would i guess be the Merc GL, (ML\X5\Q7 is smaller than the escalade?) which handles like a Ferrari Enzo in comparison to the Escalade, with the right engine its also waaay faster. Interior wise, the material choices and overall build quality just doesn't compare.
 
The pontiac G8 is not bad at all.
Actually you're right, on paper it doesn't look bad at all. 361hp and available with a manual transmission if you get the sports version. (Not a problem, I almost always get the sports version now. With the way I drive it's a safety feature anymore. ;) )

Still though, for $40k there are a whole lot of others cars I'd be looking/getting before that G8....and I doubt it'd be a different american car.
 
Actually you're right, on paper it doesn't look bad at all. 361hp and available with a manual transmission if you get the sports version. (Not a problem, I almost always get the sports version now. With the way I drive it's a safety feature anymore. ;) )

Still though, for $40k there are a whole lot of others cars I'd be looking/getting before that G8....and I doubt it'd be a different american car.

A Subaru WRX or Lancer Evo will hold their own in a drag race with it and beat the crap out of it in both twisties and on snow. The G8 would probably win a head-on collision competition though. IMHO the only truly fun US car is the latest few years of Corvettes. Much lighter and nimble. Still they rattle more than I like.
 
Why on earth do you build so many cars with 4+litre v8 engines when it spits out 150-200hp? All you get is terrible milage and increased weight, might aswell just put a 4-sylinder turbocharged 1,8 litre.

The V8s in the G8 and charger all put out ~400 hp, with nice flat torque curves thanks the large displacement. There's no replacement for displacement, a 1.8l turbo 4 an never even come close imo.

Handling is ridiculus is most american cars.

I have yet to see any definitive proof of this. Please point me to numbers that show say a G8 getting owned by a comparable merc or bmw (on a track, i.e lap times).

Driven the Escalade? Oh-my-god what a humoungous piece of crap that is. Handling is good, until you have to stop going straight and take a turn! The interior looks awful, lots of plastic makes it feel super cheap.

Of course the escalade is shit. Huge SUV built solely to cash in on the ridiculous SUV craze that swept NA. On that note the cayenne is also shit IMO. Not even close to a real porsche.

Basically when anybody ever criticizes American cars they say the following:

A) Build/Interior quality is shit

But then there are *plenty* of American cars that are very reliable. My moms ford focus has been going since 2000 and has over 200k kms on it with no major failures for example. Interior quality? Just personal preference. So what if they use plastic. Completely subjective.

B) Handling sucks

where are the numbers????
 
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The G8 is good but still very heavy. Comparable to the charger in a lot of ways. Really i think people are way too hard on American cars. We have some good cars. Where's the nationalistic pride people? In japan people buy japanese products to support japnese industry, we need more of that in NA (i guess it's too late now though lol).

The reason why the Japanese people buy japanese people is because it does not make sense for them not to buy them. If they dont buy japanese cars, than what should they buy? Why would they? They got cheap, high quality, comfortable cars that are perfectly suited for what the japanese use their car for. They dont want a 2 ton gasguzzling shitty build quality american pick up (and even if they wanted to, they couldnt as most of them wont have enough parking space for them thus they wont even be allowed to buy one). The same goes for most of their other products. Why buy a phillips tv if can get one from ''insert japanese brand'' that will have atleast the same quality and probably a cheaper price because of being sold on the home market.

And that is exactly the reason why the west buys so much Japanese products. Lots of quility for often a very reasonable price.

As for American cars. I dont know, never driven them but if I look at cars like the Mustang which can be considerd a premium car, the interior looks like walking into the kids toys section at toys R us. The whole car seems to be made out of cheap plastics. And because they are so freakin big and heavy (and the americans like having suspension setups that make you feel like your on a boat) they would never work anywhere out side of America because in europe and Japan traffic means constant pulling up and slowing down and lots of (small) corners. The average american pick up truck has the same size as the trucks we have over here. They just dont work and nobody wants them because you can get something alot better from europe/japan.
 
The V8s in the G8 and charger all put out ~400 hp, with nice flat torque curves thanks the large displacement. There's no replacement for displacement, a 1.8l turbo 4 an never even come close imo.I have yet to see any definitive proof of this. Please point me to numbers that show say a G8 getting owned by a comparable merc or bmw (on a track, i.e lap times).

The WRX STI has a 2.5 4t that puts out somewhere near 364 bhp on a much lighter vehicle. It will barely lose to a G8 in a drag and will simply mop the floors with it on a track or twisty course. Surf the car mag sites to find numbers.
 
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