DRM Implications *spin*

[eastmen]

Same with games, they have digital downloads and DLC, not to mention subscription services like COD Elite.

And also you're assuming that all industries have to be as profitable as other industries.
Not so, the film industry could well just be more profitable than games, doesn't mean the game industry should try and overturn first sale doctrine to suit them.

It's like if the airline industry (one of the least profitable industries in the world) was allowed to flout long held conventions of the law to 'even the playing field' since " our industry is so difficult to make any money in! Look how much the cruise ship operators rake in!"

None of those are as big as movie's revenue . A lot of those feature are also very new and we don't know how much they add to the profit of the game.


The game industry doesn't look very profitable we've had a slew of studio closings the last few years.


Air lines are propped up by the government and have received numerous bail outs over the years. But they lobby a lot of money back into Washington and prevent better transportation means to move forward . Things like high speed rail.

So they do have something to level the playing field.

 

[(((interference)))]

None of those are as big as movie's revenue . A lot of those feature are also very new and we don't know how much they add to the profit of the game.


The game industry doesn't look very profitable we've had a slew of studio closings the last few years.


Air lines are propped up by the government and have received numerous bail outs over the years. But they lobby a lot of money back into Washington and prevent better transportation means to move forward . Things like high speed rail.

So they do have something to level the playing field.

My point remains, you are assuming all industries should be able to make similar levels of revenue or profit.

And 'they lobby Washington to block high speed rail" sounds like a conspiracy theory.

 

[Dregun]

I said it once before many MANY years ago....

Sony, MS and Nintendo need to have their own Used game market that offers the ability to cut the developers in on the re-sales.

Since the next gen hasn't started yet it would be a perfect time for them to implement it. Simply key every disc with its own unique serial number, it can still be borrowed or sold..no problem. Yet, if the individual who owns it decides to log into their machine and go to the respective online store they can "sell" it to that console maker for a predetermined market value price (if the disc is in the console). Once the purchase has been made that disc can no longer be used but they now have that credit onto their account.

Each console manufacture would keep tabs on how many used copies have been "sold" to them, allowing them to adjust the used games accordingly and even outright halting purchases of any used game that is no longer valuable to the market.

So if someone sold a copy of the latest MGS or Halo to that respective console manufacture that "used" copy is available for purchase at what ever market value they see fit. Both the console manufacturer and the developer would split the profits how they see fit

This way not only do the developers win but the gamers do as well. Since the pool of used games would encompass as large of a region as they see fit, potentially giving gamers access to more titles.

To help discourage people from constantly reselling used games and not buying anything new ever again they can key every used game to count the amount of times it has been resold. Each time a game is resold the "value" of it reduces to those selling it but stays the same for those wanting to buy it. Meaning that used copy of MGS above is worth less than it was the second it was purchased and so on and so forth.

As for "authenticating" the disc and those without internet; there is a solution; albeit somewhat tricky The game could be played right out of the package without internet access and yes even borrowed without internet access. Once the game is sold it goes into the "do no play" list.

The Do No Play list would be included in every game, mandatory. Each time a game is placed inside the console the hash file is queried against the hash file that is on the console to make sure it is up to date. This list contains serial numbers for all games that have been "sold" as to not allow a sold game disc to be played again.

Those with internet enabled consoles would just get a small mandatory update every time the console connects to the internet letting it know what games are on the Do Not Play list. Games purchased as digital downloads will simply be deleted and a separate hash file created and only updated on that particular console, no need to replicate it.

Furthermore for any individual who would like to have used hard copies of games this can still take place through the online store. As a purchase of a used game would unlock that game on their console no matter the medium. I'm sure there would be hundreds of people willing to ebay their used game disc for a buck or two.

To prevent unwanted theft by someone selling someone else's game; that would require online activation of the disc. So rental companies would activate the disc to prevent someone from "selling" it without permission. Also stop your friends from selling your games. Once activated the disc is tied to the console that activated it so it could only be sold from that console.

Only issue this would not address is those wanting to trade one console game in order to purchase a game for another console.

 

[-tkf-]

All those items break down during use and require maintance .

A book's binding will break , pages will rip and so on

A digital book can't allways be shared unless you give someone else your e-reader and so on

Cars are the same thing. Oil changes , brakes , tires /rotation , gas , air filters , belts and so on and so forth all require more money going to the manufacturer or sub companys to support.

Clothes also become useless as time goes on. Yes an infinite number of babys can wear clothes but clothes start to fade / tear as they are washed and worn more and more. Then there are stains and other things that will prevent u from using them for multiple children.


A plastic disc is really hard to destroy through normal wear and tear. A digital download doesn't break down or wear away. You just keep downloading it till its offered no longer.




And what if they made the disc really brittle so that after so many plays you have to take it in to get it resurfaced. Same with the disc drive , after say 20 games you need to take it in to be oiled up and have the lense changed. That would put it more in line with your examples




This is true . So we come to a point , do we accept online passes and more and more nickel and diming us or do we let to used game market go away and see if we can't reduce the nickel and diming .

On the pc I've been paying less per game than at any point in my game playing history (which started at 8 and i'm now 31) . Lack of used games did not send pc gaming prices out of control



Why would customers continue to support the dev and publishers if that is the case ? If everyone buys cod 1 and it sucks and is broken and they rush out and buy cod 2 and its the same thing , they can only blame themselves.

If anything the used game market rewards this behavior cause they will buy the game play it for a bit and sell it to buy the next broken game and so on and so forth all the while bleeding money for broken games.

If games become less front loaded in revenue due to people buying them as they drop in price (no secondary market eating up profits at each lower price point) then game companies will have more incentive to continue to support the game to get a longer tail of profits . WIth no used games developers could continue making money all the way down to $10 games or even $1 games when they reach a point way down their life line. Just look at steam sales.

A lot of people make fun of Dyack but he was right . Games should be developed before they are even announced and when announced and shown the first time they should be feature complete and finished and they should then go through a bug test phase before release 6 months to a year down the line. It would prevent broken games from coming out



Why ? The way steam works is fine. You release a game at X price point , recoup profits from it , as sales slow down you drop to Y price point and rinse and repeat. Unlike now there will be higher demand at each price drop due to no secondary market eroding the demand at the price point.

Right now if a game launches at $60 bucks and a used $50 copy appears a week later that used market will reduce the amount of sales the company will get when they drop to $50 bucks. When they drop to $50 the used game drops to $40 and those $40 sales are reduced for the new copy and so on and so forth.



Cause its not free to develop content ? Because you have the secondary market eating into sales all the while ? Right now if they do what you say the secondary market will stay alive and well and feed off the new content.



Why ? I bought plenty of Nintendo games fully knowing that at some point in the future there wont be Nintendo's left to play it on.

I've done the same will all systems including the xbox 360 and ps3. The death of the server is the same thing as the death of the hardware platform. As long as it doesn't happen when the sequel comes out but instead at 5 or 10 years later I'm fine with it. Even better some companys will just patch the drm out.

You assume that a game is indestructible while everything else breaks easily. First of all, it does not matter, a games value is not measured in how worn down it is physically, the games value is based on how good it is and where you purchase it in it's lifespan. Books can easily outlast a CD of DVD based media, paper can last for hundreds of years. Try that with a CD or DVD. But basically that is not what the discussion is about. No matter how worn down a car, bicycle or book is, someone buying a used "anything" is still taking away a potential sale of a new "anything" from a manufacturer.

Imho there is no fundamental difference between games and anything else bought used. And my point is that if we take away the right to sell a used game there is no real reason why it shouldn't be the same for anything else.

Funny isn't it, that other markets understand that used items hold value, and they sell them next to their new items. car dealers, bicycles, music stores etc etc. The above poster is correct, this is a market that the industry themselves could cash in on.

Congratulations on your new chair, be aware that this chair is only licensed to be used at this address by these people. It is not allow to let the neighbours borrow it for their parties. Should you move you will need to register your new address and deactivate your current address. Please note, it's only possible to re-register 5 new addresses to avoid people abusing the system. Reselling is prohibited.

 

[eastmen]

I put a cd in a player and that's it. There is no wear on the disc unless i'm an idiot and start rubbing it against everything in my house.

A book receives wear just by using it for its intended use. When I read a book I'm bending / breaking the spine .

I have carts and cd games that still work fine 25 + years later.

 

[orangpelupa]

for me its the opposite.

books about 25 years ago still work. My Betamax cassete and floppy disk seems broken.
the cassete wont turn, the floppy disk magnetic plastic looks weird.

unfortunately i cant really check if its still work because i no longer have betamax player or floppy disk drive. But the cassete wont turn, i should be able to turn it using my fingers after lifting the "mouth".

then game also have shorter usage life. I play it, i finish it, i put it on box. For books, i read it, i put it on bookshelf, i read it again and again and again and again after a few years.

about disc, CD is really easy broken. After a few years the silver layer will start peeling itself. Or the silver layer will get black dot or transparent dot.
Fortunately DVD is much better. My DVD have never got its reflective layer peeling of or turning black dots/transparent dots.

back about DRM, the inability to resell game happends since long time ago on PC and it did not feel annoying. But nowadays DRM getting more and more annoying with the need of internet connection for single player game.

Want to play Bit Trip? oh i cant, because suddently steam failed to run in offline mode. This happens multiple times when i'm out of town.

for me, DRM is OK as long as i can use the game to play however i want, whenever i want.

want to play with friend? ooooh i cant, because my friend have not buy the game.
offline CO OP in halo game is good. Download Play in Nintendo DS is awesome.

 

[-tkf-]

I put a cd in a player and that's it. There is no wear on the disc unless i'm an idiot and start rubbing it against everything in my house.

A book receives wear just by using it for its intended use. When I read a book I'm bending / breaking the spine .

I have carts and cd games that still work fine 25 + years later.

Books that are thousand years old still works. A cd is fragile compared to that.

Why don't you adress the core principle instead. If used games can't be sold why not block anything else as well.

 

[Davros]

Congratulations on your new chair, be aware that this chair is only licensed to be used at this address by these people. It is not allow to let the neighbours borrow it for their parties.

OMG
http://www.networkworld.com/community/blog/drm-chair-self-destructs-after-8-sittings

 

[eastmen]

Books that are thousand years old still works. A cd is fragile compared to that.

Why don't you adress the core principle instead. If used games can't be sold why not block anything else as well.

Why not ?


Most likely because the secondary market is tiny for other things you brought up , unlike the video game industry where the used game market may be even better than the new game market.


Unless you think there is a huge market for used coffee filters

 

[(((interference)))]

Why not ?


Most likely because the secondary market is tiny for other things you brought up , unlike the video game industry where the used game market may be even better than the new game market.


Unless you think there is a huge market for used coffee filters

Well, there is a huge market for used cars, used books, used furniture, not to mention used capital assets like industrial tools and machinery, planes etc.

And you're still ignoring the basic principle on why should games be exempt from the first sale doctrine, unlike everything else.
As long as you refuse to address that, it's simply special pleading on your part.

 

[Davros]

because they don't wear out, same reason why we shouldnt be able to sell stocks and shares

 

[eastmen]

Well, there is a huge market for used cars, used books, used furniture, not to mention used capital assets like industrial tools and machinery, planes etc.

And you're still ignoring the basic principle on why should games be exempt from the first sale doctrine, unlike everything else.
As long as you refuse to address that, it's simply special pleading on your part.

I've already discussed that. The majority of these have upkeep costs.

Like I said would u want them to design your disc to need to be resurfaced every so often or your console to need to be serviced every so often ?

 

[Davros]

Oh, I appologise
because they dont have upkeep costs, same reason why we shouldnt be able to sell stocks and shares.

 

[(((interference)))]

I've already discussed that. The majority of these have upkeep costs.

Like I said would u want them to design your disc to need to be resurfaced every so often or your console to need to be serviced every so often ?

Well, books don't really have upkeep costs - but your point is irrelevant anyway, what does having upkeep costs got to do with not being able to resell something.

And what about other items sharing the same physical media (disks), namely movies/TV shows and music?

 

[-tkf-]

I've already discussed that. The majority of these have upkeep costs.

Like I said would u want them to design your disc to need to be resurfaced every so often or your console to need to be serviced every so often ?

Upkeep costs? Even now many used games have extra costs associated with them, anything from online pass to preorder dls.
And you need hardware to play the games.

But that is really not an argument there is lots of used items that has comparable upkeep costs, especially when compared to the short lifespan that games have. We wouldn't accept not being able to sell those items.

Congratulations on your new dumbbells, please notice, these can not be resold since they don't wear out and will always weigh the same.

 

[Davros]

jims thoughts
http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/view/jimquisition/4720-Used-Games-Have-A-Right-To-Exist

 

[eastmen]

Oh, I appologise
because they dont have upkeep costs, same reason why we shouldnt be able to sell stocks and shares.

Stocks and shares have their own problems. They are ruining the world actually .

 

[Davros]

You do realise that you are arguing for the last right you have as a games consumer to be removed from you.....

 

[Cjail]

Technically the only right we have is to use the software.
As customers we have no right to profit on somebody else work/IP.

The only reason why selling used games is possible is because the laws regrading IP and copyright are ridiculously inadequate/dated pretty much all over the world.
Megaupload prospered because of these inadequacies and GameStop profits BILLIONS of dollars a year as well.
Billions that should go to developers and publishers, the ones really entitled to them.

Also it is absolutely false that re-selling games is the last right we have as consumers.
There are many laws that protect us customers and we will have many rights.

 

[-tkf-]

Technically the only right we have is to use the software.
As customers we have no right to profit on somebody else work/IP..

How do I profit if I sell a used game book cd dvd painting poster? Unless i sell the item for more than I paid I loose money.

But please tell us how you would handle the used market for the above mentioned items.

Books, posters, paintings, cd's, dvds it's the same problem as with software. It's someone's else's work and ip.