DRM Implications *spin*

[bkilian]

What I don't understand is why game publishers think their particular industry should ban used sales of physical media, when even the music and film industry, who are far more aggressive on IP and copyright issues haven't been campaigning for this.

Haha! Really? The publishing industry fought it all the way to having to have a law (copyright act of 1976) made to explicitly allow resale. The music industry fought it and managed to disallow music rental. The movie industry fought it, but lost the rental market too, although they managed to claw back some ground by clever agreements with the rental companies. In 1998-9 they tried introducing a DVD format you couldn't really resell, called DIVX. Luckily, it failed dismally.

The used market has long been a target of all sorts of copyright based companies.

 

[eastmen]

not only that bkilian but those forms of entertainment have multiple layers of profit

Movies - Box office - Disc/DD purchase - Rental - tv rights

Music - Disc sales , Radio , movie/tv liscensing / , concerts and so on

Game sales really just have the initial sales so I wouldn't doubt that they would want to remove anything competing with their only means of revenue .

 

[manux]

How are pc games handled now and why would console games be any different ?

PC games are not any different in eu. There is a case against steam going on in EU land based on the oracle case ruling. Coincidentally this same will apply to apple, google and whatnots too. It's surely interesting in euro land now in regards to used games/digital content.

 

[eastmen]

PC games are not any different in eu. There is a case against steam going on in EU land based on the oracle case ruling. Coincidentally this same will apply to apple, google and whatnots too. It's surely interesting in euro land now in regards to used games/digital content.

Will be funny when everyone just stops selling products in Europe .

 

[Inuhanyou]

^ How would cutting a major market out of your sales prospects help your revenue stream? That's like cutting off your nose to spite your face.


I'm actually kind of hoping that Microsoft does end up blocking used games completely, it'll make it much easier for me to decide which console to buy so i can actually save some money next gen as opposed to having to balance two systems like i am doing with 360 and PS3

Even if there was no argument to be had on actually having your consumer rights taken away to buy and sell your product like every other product, this will not make it easier to buy games. Someone here said "just stop being a spender and spend less money". Well. That's exactly what will happen. And the industry will be even worse off that it is now.

What some people have to remember is that the console manufacturers raise their revenue directly off of software sales. They don't make much if any money on selling their hardware. So what incentive do they have to charge less and give the consumer better optional price?

Keeping the prices high with no alternatives to save money is just an abhorrent practice in general.

Instead of blocking used games, perhaps these manufactures should realize why people go for used to begin with and start lowing their absurd prices.


Also contrary to that link, i really doubt Sony of all people wants to kill of the disk drive. Why would they want to kill off their own media format that they spent billions trying to get into people's homes? They fought an entire war over HDDVD, and suddenly they are not expected to want to keep that aspect in people's minds?

 

[Yemeth]

Will be funny when everyone just stops selling products in Europe .

Yes, it would be really funny for their return of investment. How dare the customers demand something, they should put up the money and shut up .

I have mentioned it in these discussions already, but if you run a company and forget that you should adapt to the market and not the other way around, you will be rudely awakened. Because, if the game companies go over the line, people will turn away from gaming to something else. The music industry still has not learned their lesson (and also implemented "great" 360 deals for artists due their dwindling numbers), why should the game industry behave differently?

But, the blame goes both ways, even if I could, I would never buy a used game at Gamestop for a few dollars less as it is so obviously wrong that it is not even funny any more (as bkilian mentioned, a small discount is not a used sell price!)...

The game industry model is so wrong that nothing wonders me any more, even though many of you here are/were in the industry maybe someone learns something new from this Chris Taylor interview http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5zJdMRKBbLE .

 

[Inuhanyou]

When i go to gamestop and buy used games, they always have deals like 50 or 60 percent credit when you trade in your games toward new ones. I frequently do that when i'm finished with a game i don't want anymore.

According to Gamestop themselves over a billion dollars in revenue for new game sales each year comes out of that. So who exactly began this schtick over Gamestop to begin with? Is it because they thought of the idea to give customers back value for their money?

I don't game on PC so i don't know how its like, but what's the difference between that and those super extreme sales on Steam where obviously there can't be any money going back to the development studio?

 

[Yemeth]

When i go to gamestop and buy used games, they always have deals like 50 or 60 percent credit when you trade in your games toward new ones. I frequently do that when i'm finished with a game i don't want anymore.

According to Gamestop themselves over a billion dollars in revenue for new game sales each year comes out of that. So who exactly began this schtick over Gamestop to begin with? Is it because they thought of the idea to give customers back value for their money?

I don't game on PC so i don't know how its like, but what's the difference between that and those super extreme sales on Steam where obviously there can't be any money going back to the development studio?

So, it is not that the used games are only a few dollars cheaper than the new ones? Because, this is what I have been reading for years...

One thing is sure, much of the saved money from used games goes into buy new ones.

Steam: Why do you think that on the 75% sales no money goes to the developer? I remember one interview where the discount sales saved the developer, so it they certainly get something.

Thanks.

 

[Inuhanyou]

So, it is not that the used games are only a few dollars cheaper than the new ones? Because, this is what I have been reading for years...

One thing is sure, much of the saved money from used games goes into buy new ones.

Steam: Why do you think that on the 75% sales no money goes to the developer? I remember one interview where the discount sales saved the developer, so it they certainly get something.

Thanks.

Not a few dollars. For example, i bought Vanquish for PS3 there used for 18 bucks a couple years back. Why did i buy it used? Because in the new section it was 40 bucks. Yeah that's not happening. I frequently get much lower prices than the new copies i see on shelves by buying used. Its not a matter of 5 dollars or whatever i hear regurgitated from people who don't actually go to Gamestop. If that was the case why would i bother buying used to begin with over supporting the developers directly?

Amazon is pretty good at online deals as far as i know, but the shipping can be a deal breaker and its usually quicker just to get to the Gamestop near my house.

Its way worse at 'normal' stores that aren't gamer targeted. Their game sections only sell new and hardly ever depreciate in price. Heck i still can walk into Target and see Modern Warfare 3 up on the shelf for 59.99!

This comes back to my point. New games need to be cheaper, or publishers have to allow them to depreciate faster. That's the only way your going to get more sales. Nobody has unlimited money to spend on all this shit that they want people to buy.


My view is, if you as a publisher can't make your money with all the DLC schemes, pre order bonuses and season pass bullcrap, then you really should not be making games, because your not going to survive in any scenario if you continue on the path toward greed over actually thinking logically, like maybe reducing your marketing budget? Maybe making your development teams more efficient?



Steam : As i said i don't really know anything about the process. I just have come across 2, 3 dollar sales for games like Deus Ex, Bioshock and many other AAA titles and i wonder how that actually works. Like how much are they really making off of that paltry amount. If you've got any insight, much appreciated

 

[eastmen]

^ How would cutting a major market out of your sales prospects help your revenue stream? That's like cutting off your nose to spite your face.


I'm actually kind of hoping that Microsoft does end up blocking used games completely, it'll make it much easier for me to decide which console to buy so i can actually save some money next gen as opposed to having to balance two systems like i am doing with 360 and PS3

Even if there was no argument to be had on actually having your consumer rights taken away to buy and sell your product like every other product, this will not make it easier to buy games. Someone here said "just stop being a spender and spend less money". Well. That's exactly what will happen. And the industry will be even worse off that it is now.

What some people have to remember is that the console manufacturers raise their revenue directly off of software sales. They don't make much if any money on selling their hardware. So what incentive do they have to charge less and give the consumer better optional price?

Keeping the prices high with no alternatives to save money is just an abhorrent practice in general.

Instead of blocking used games, perhaps these manufactures should realize why people go for used to begin with and start lowing their absurd prices.


Also contrary to that link, i really doubt Sony of all people wants to kill of the disk drive. Why would they want to kill off their own media format that they spent billions trying to get into people's homes? They fought an entire war over HDDVD, and suddenly they are not expected to want to keep that aspect in people's minds?

I buy a lot of DD products and don't have a problem lacking the ability to return or sell them. I simply don't piss money away and I can get games a lot cheaper if I wait a bit.

I much rather have the perks of DD than physical media .

I'm getting sim city for $40 bucks and bioshock for $45. I just recently paid $15 for the first 2 AC titles combined. These are very good values.

Much better than the value I would get for a used copy of these games. I could buy bioshock at $60 for the ps3 and then trade it in for $30 a week later and I guess save $15 over the DD verison , but then again it wont look or play as good and it would require multiple trips to the store to purchase. I also get the game for as long as steam or origin exists and I can move it over to all windows based computers. So I can play on my pc or my surface and do that even in 5 years when I buy new hardware. If you decided to keep the new bioshock on ps3 would u be able to play it on sony's new hardware ? Or if you decide you want to play it after you traded it in what would you do ? Buy it again and thus negating any savings you might have ?


As for disc based formats , I doubt sony cares , bluray is no where near the size of dvd and will never even reach that point . The new compression tech allows you to stream 4k at 10mb so even today's internet connections are fast enough for 4k .

The world is changing .

 

[eastmen]

Not a few dollars. For example, i bought Vanquish for PS3 there used for 18 bucks a couple years back. Why did i buy it used? Because in the new section it was 40 bucks. Yeah that's not happening. I frequently get much lower prices than the new copies i see on shelves by buying used. Its not a matter of 5 dollars or whatever i hear regurgitated from people who don't actually go to Gamestop. If that was the case why would i bother buying used to begin with over supporting the developers directly?

With DD I can get a game for that cheap also. I just wait for the sales or the titles to go down a bit. Vanquish wasn't $18 bucks used right after the game came out.

Amazon is pretty good at online deals as far as i know, but the shipping can be a deal breaker and its usually quicker just to get to the Gamestop near my house.

You can also use prime and preorder so you get it launch day if you want to spend full price

Its way worse at 'normal' stores that aren't gamer targeted. Their game sections only sell new and hardly ever depreciate in price. Heck i still can walk into Target and see Modern Warfare 3 up on the shelf for 59.99!

So don't shop there ?

This comes back to my point. New games need to be cheaper, or publishers have to allow them to depreciate faster. That's the only way your going to get more sales. Nobody has unlimited money to spend on all this shit that they want people to buy.

No used games would help with this

My view is, if you as a publisher can't make your money with all the DLC schemes, pre order bonuses and season pass bullcrap, then you really should not be making games, because your not going to survive in any scenario if you continue on the path toward greed over actually thinking logically, like maybe reducing your marketing budget? Maybe making your development teams more efficient?

Which side is greedy ? Used games remove sales from the publishers , sales that could make the game profitable without any of these other schemes

Steam : As i said i don't really know anything about the process. I just have come across 2, 3 dollar sales for games like Deus Ex, Bioshock and many other AAA titles and i wonder how that actually works. Like how much are they really making off of that paltry amount. If you've got any insight, much appreciated

There is no used market. So on steam a game is $60 at launch , they get data every day on sales so they wait for it to stop selling well at $60 and then drop the price. They do this over and over again until it drops down to its floor and then stays there. The only thing that costs them money is the server space to store the game for people to download which is peanuts.

 

[Davros]

Well the game industry is famous for its greed, it just wants more and more and more
ohh, we should get a cut every time one of our products is sold its not fair despite the fact nearly every other industry ever copes with used sales. it all goes back to the thought many people have that software is somehow special it shouldnt have to abide by the rules of other products

looking at you cliffy b when you sell your car and your house what percentage of the money will you be giving to the original makers, since you believe they deserve a cut every time their product is sold and you are a man of principles arnt you cliffy...

 

[Scott_Arm]

Unless new games cost $25-30, I won't buy a console that blocks used games.

 

[eastmen]

As I have said other industrys have multiple revenue streams from the same product. Would you rather games move in that direction ? Would you like it if first the game comes out only in arcades for 3 months then another 3 months after that its only avalible to rent at extremely high prices ? Then it becones exckusive for another long period of time to a single system before the other systems get it ?


And its not obly the game devs that are greedy so are the fans. We cobstabtly want more for less.

 

[liolio]

I think the thread name should be changed to something a bit more "generic" than used games only, the matter at hand is more the business model for the game industry (/publisher).
For me discussing the EA announcement about all their up coming games including micro transactions is part of the topic and part of the problem.

The business model is failed with too much costs and risks for the expected revenues, publishers are pretty much attacking their costumers to make up for that.
Day one DLC, micro transaction, repeated attempt to kill the second hand market, etc.

 

[Davros]

As I have said other industrys have multiple revenue streams from the same product.

Generally they dont, very few industries have that.

And its not obly the game devs that are greedy so are the fans. We cobstabtly want more for less.

I'm sorry when have the gamers ever wanted more for less, if we have we have never gotten it, what other industry can deny you all your rights sell a product in any condition it so pleases, generally faulty and then have their customers defend them for doing so

 

[MrFox]

http://craphound.com/msftdrm.txt

Microsoft Research DRM talk
Cory Doctorow doctorow@craphound.com
June 17, 2004

This talk was originally given to Microsoft's Research Group and other interested parties from within the company at their Redmond offices on June 17, 2004.

Time for another one of these talks.
This time about online games DRM.

 

[liolio]

The game industry model is so wrong that nothing wonders me any more, even though many of you here are/were in the industry maybe someone learns something new from this Chris Taylor interview http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5zJdMRKBbLE .

Well I'm well advanced into the watch of that interview, he is a nice guy but I'm not sure he sees the problem properly.

As he said it is just video games, he got to push further, how about the level of entertainment consumption? That is more the problem than the business model backing that extreme amount of entertainment consumption.

 

[Silent]

IMO it's a somewhat moot point long term, if you believe that online distribution is going to be dominant eventually then it seems like a bad plan to alienate consumers today.

Here in Europe in some countries there has been already some lawsuits regarding digital distribution and that as a consumer you have the right to sell your "license". I think in Germany there was a case regarding Valve, which it lost. So I don't think that digital distribution will help them. Digital distribution makes it easier to transfer ownership in my mind.

I'm really not convinced that this will result in lower prices. I can already here the spin that game development is becoming more expensive and that because of the blocking of 2 second hand games, we will still be able to buy games at 60 euro a piece.

I'm very curious IF this is the case that you can't play second hand games, how the reaction will be here in Europe from consumer organisations and the law in general.

The arguments of losing money by the second hand market is very weak. Regarding services you can have passport like services, which I'm not against. But all the result is an argument that you can use for everything that is available in second hand.

Then again here in Belgium they totally killed the rental business, so blocking second hand games is the next step.

 

[AlphaWolf]

You would have loved DIVX.
There's no way to support the word "need" nor the word "damage" in your argument. The market doesn't work that way and history proves both are wrong.

There are plenty of ways to support them. Look at the history of game studios. It's anything but a picture of a health. If the market works the way you think, consumers will kill off online pass, exclusive content, always on DRM and other DRM right quick, but I wouldn't hold your breath.

Steam and iOS are often used of glowing examples of working systems. They have no used market and the rest of the world will follow them shortly. Debating about why probably won't change it.