DRM Implications *spin*

There are plenty of ways to support them. Look at the history of game studios. It's anything but a picture of a health. If the market works the way you think, consumers will kill off online pass, exclusive content, always on DRM and other DRM right quick, but I wouldn't hold your breath.

Steam and iOS are often used of glowing examples of working systems. They have no used market and the rest of the world will follow them shortly. Debating about why probably won't change it.
Costumers won't have choice anyway...

As for iOs, I'm not sure to which extend the App model is sustainable. I read that marketing researches have shown that people that have owned smart phone for a long while pretty much no longer use the apps store and sticks to a few basic and useful apps more than often include in the OS. Most apps developers don't make a dime, for now Apple is the main winner.

Steam on the other hand exists because of the revenues generated on consoles (/synergy with consoles).

But it is not like we have choice, it is not a free market in anyway.
 
Generally they dont, very few industries have that.



I'm sorry when have the gamers ever wanted more for less, if we have we have never gotten it, what other industry can deny you all your rights sell a product in any condition it so pleases, generally faulty and then have their customers defend them for doing so


A lot of industries have that so I dunno what your trying to say.

Gamers want more each generation and with each new game. They allways want more features / more maps / better graphics and so on and they want it at lower and lower prices.

Customers shouldn't be buying faulty games. Blame those going out and buying games release day and continuing to reward bad habits. I don't do that , in the majority of cases I wait till a game has been out for a year to purchase. There are few that I jump into sooner and if I hear bad things I move away quicker
 
The ethical issues of second hand sales is discussed here. (RSPCA forum, membership required).

This thread can only talk about whether and how companies are doing and how it can affect business. Whether they should do it or not is a debate on intellectual property rights, the nature of creativity, the nature of digital media, and morality, which clearly doesn't belong here.
 
Game sales really just have the initial sales so I wouldn't doubt that they would want to remove anything competing with their only means of revenue .

And they sell at a very high price, and then they sell DLC packages and if it'd a multiplayer game they sell online passes for used games.

There is plenty of ways to "combat" used games without taking away the basic right to buy something and resell it.

Music - Disc sales , Radio , movie/tv liscensing / , concerts and so on

This is to some extent true, but it's not everybody that can earn money on licenseing music and it's not everybody that can "tour" with their music. Today it's more of a question of having to do everything possible with music since it's so easy to steal and copy that people simply just take what they want. The used market was never mentioned as a problem when the music industry was making money.

Anyway we have been over these things a million times and we have a thread for that, the interesting question for me is if cheaper games would make people give up used games, which was the question i was asking myself. But since then i have come to the conclusion that it would be absurdly stupid to give up used games for a lower price. It would literally kill the history of games on that platform when DRM servers died.
 
The majority of a Film's box office revenue is in the first few weeks.
So is the Bluray release.
So is the DVD release.
So is the latest album from your favorite auto-tuned pop star.
So is the Hardcover version of the latest popular boy-wizard story.

So are the games. What kind of trickery is this?
 
Rawing back to the news, it seems SOny is not that sure about how to deal with used games:
http://arstechnica.com/gaming/2013/02/sony-uk-exec-ps4-used-game-question-isnt-clarified-just-yet/
https://twitter.com/GameStop/status/306904279854243840

This is to be taken with a grain of salt, but I think if the gamestop CEO loves the PS4, it's a pretty good indication that it will play used games. (not that I care about gamestop surviving or not, where I live there are much better stores to exchange games)
 
I'm not sure the "Games only monetize once" is any real sort of argument.
As one of my friends likes to say Games in general do a shitty job of generating revenue, compared to other media or entertainment the amount of revenue per minute generated is very low. His view is that it just means there is more scope to generate revenue, tiered releases, subscriptions, advertising, community events etc etc etc.
I think he's probably right and the only company coming close to that sort of model ATM IMO is Blizzard.

I think most people will choose convenience over low price/resale-ability, ITunes is no cheaper for music than buying CD's and yet people buy the lower quality product because they can have it without a trip to the store installed on the device they use to replay it now.
I buy Kindle books, because books take up way too much space and I already have hundreds.
Online purchases will become dominant perhaps not now, maybe not in 10 years, and it will happen because of the convenience and perceived value it offers, not because people are forced into it.

I could see big publishers wanting to kill the used market, but I think you'll see it more incentive based in the short term, exclusive content etc.

The EU being able to sell your license thing is interesting, but how has it affected existing services, has Steam complied in europe? What about Apple with ITunes?
 
The EU being able to sell your license thing is interesting, but how has it affected existing services, has Steam complied in europe? What about Apple with ITunes?

There was a case against steam which valve won. Then came the oracle ruling and steam was sued again. The oracle case should make it pretty clear that valve will loose this second lawsuit at some point of time. Until then things go as they go.
 
And they sell at a very high price, and then they sell DLC packages and if it'd a multiplayer game they sell online passes for used games.

There is plenty of ways to "combat" used games without taking away the basic right to buy something and resell it.



This is to some extent true, but it's not everybody that can earn money on licenseing music and it's not everybody that can "tour" with their music. Today it's more of a question of having to do everything possible with music since it's so easy to steal and copy that people simply just take what they want. The used market was never mentioned as a problem when the music industry was making money.

Anyway we have been over these things a million times and we have a thread for that, the interesting question for me is if cheaper games would make people give up used games, which was the question i was asking myself. But since then i have come to the conclusion that it would be absurdly stupid to give up used games for a lower price. It would literally kill the history of games on that platform when DRM servers died.

IT depends on what you enter into. I buy cable tv every month. I don't have the right to sell the tv shows .

Cheaper games wont stop people from using used games because used games can allways be cheaper than new games.There is no way to combat this as there is no real cost involved with obtaining the used copy. Or I should say , no huge investment before hand. IF a game is $40 new that's grat right ? Better than $60 but someone will still sell it to game stop for $10 and gamestop will sell it for $30 and we are right back where we started but the race to the bottom is even quicker.

The majority of a Film's box office revenue is in the first few weeks.
So is the Bluray release.
So is the DVD release.
So is the latest album from your favorite auto-tuned pop star.
So is the Hardcover version of the latest popular boy-wizard story.

So are the games. What kind of trickery is this?

Well you just listed 3 ways a single investment is able to recoup its costs. The majority of a film's investment is making the actual film which can be from the millions to the hundreds of millions.

So a movie comes out , is able to recoup much of its money in the box office , sometimes it even turns a huge profit at the box office. Then it goes to bluray/dvd the costs for the bluray and dvd are much lower than the cost for the actual film. Its a fraction of the cost and gives them another revenue stream.

You then forget to mention rental money and liscensing to tv stations for exclusive air rights.


With music your forgetting that it can be liscensed for other things and that artists can still command ticket prices for decade old albums during live performances.

Anyway I dunno if i'm supposed to post this here or that split off thread so hopefully I posted in the right one.
 
As I have said other industrys have multiple revenue streams from the same product. Would you rather games move in that direction ? Would you like it if first the game comes out only in arcades for 3 months then another 3 months after that its only avalible to rent at extremely high prices ? Then it becones exckusive for another long period of time to a single system before the other systems get it ?

The problem with this kind of reasoning is that, for example, DVDs/Blurays do not cost $50+, more like $20-30 so while films make money from the cinema release the home media releases are far cheaper than games - plus movie budgets are larger than game budgets.

Haha! Really? The publishing industry fought it all the way to having to have a law (copyright act of 1976) made to explicitly allow resale. The music industry fought it and managed to disallow music rental. The movie industry fought it, but lost the rental market too, although they managed to claw back some ground by clever agreements with the rental companies. In 1998-9 they tried introducing a DVD format you couldn't really resell, called DIVX. Luckily, it failed dismally.

The used market has long been a target of all sorts of copyright based companies.

Oh, I'm sure they tried to do stop used sales, but they didn't get away with it - and despite being the biggest and most vociferous pro IP/copyright lobby in the world, they don't seem to be still fighting for it.
 
The problem with this kind of reasoning is that, for example, DVDs/Blurays do not cost $50+, more like $20-30 so while films make money from the cinema release the home media releases are far cheaper than games - plus movie budgets are larger than game budgets.

Bluray's are pushing $30 + now with the Bluray + DVD + Ultravilot version .

Also Disc sales are just one piece of the pie of a movie's revenue stream.



I look at it this way. Used games didn't affect me when they went away on the pc. I am quite happy with the way pcs have gone. So I don't mind it on the console either. I adjusted my purchasing habits .

Even with the launch of the 360 I had a lot of friends still working at gamestop / graduating college with time on their hands. We would buy all the 360 games for the first 2 or 3 years as soon as they came out buying them at $60 + bucks. Now we all wait and we get the games for $30 or less . There are 2-3 games a year I even consider buying at full price and even then that's not allways true.

For instance I am getting Sim City tomorrow but through amazon I get a $20 gift card . So I got sim city for $40 instead of $60 .

If I purchase bioshock infinite I will get x-com and bioshock 1 with it . I own both of them but my gf doesn't own x-com and wants it and I can gift bioshock to a friend . So even that I wouldn't pay full price for in the end.


I'm sure no used games will suck for people who have to have everything the day it comes out. But if they adjust their buying habits they will most likely enjoy the games more while paying less for them.
 
Books, do i buy a license to read it once, would i accept a cheaper price if i could only read the book once.
Bicycle, do i accept a cheaper bicycle if i weren't allowed to let anyone else ride it.
Cars, same thing.
Clothes, we have clothes that have been worn by up to 4 babies, we are killing the baby clothes industry, they should be limited to one baby only?

Anywhere else but games we would find these conditions to be stupid and unacceptable.

The problem with games is that they are expensive, provide very little hourly value (they are short) unless they have a multiplayer aspect that makes people buy them. Loose essentially no value (doesn't show wear) except for online passes. They have a very short lifespan at full price and is simply abandoned when released.

Imagine other products where there is no spares left after 6 months (patches to fix problems) the complete engineering team being fired after producing a car leaving no one left to care for the customers. How come we the customers are supposed to suffer for this when we buy just one certain product.

I will say it again, it's up to the game companies to solve the problem, yes, one way is locking down used games. In a way completely viable but then they should call it "rent a game", buy gamestop and rent out games, or do it via Digital Services. They could provide games that everyone else could buy at $1000 a pop. As long as they don't claim to be selling anything to me it's ok. But with the cunning plan we are discussing, they would rent you a game for $40.

Of course i would stay away from those games and platforms and go wherever i was accepted as a customer and not a tool to provide $ to a sick industry. I think the industry needs a real good kick in the balls, start to think games differently, (here i go on repeat, sorry) provide value OVER TIME, why not use the DLC's that they develop , or pull out of the game content, as a way to keep the game alive. Release it FOR FREE over time instead of milking the cow. Spend 80% of the budget on the game, and 20% on keeping it fresh.

Anything resembling DRM that kills games over time when servers are dead or have moved on should be boycotted by every gamer in the world, real of non real gamer. And we should spread that message wherever we go.
 
Bicycle, do i accept a cheaper bicycle if i weren't allowed to let anyone else ride it.
Cars, same thing.
Cars with single owner, always online DRM... :LOL:

On a long trip, you can't swap drivers when you're tired.
You car stops on the side of the road because you lost your internet connection.
On scheduled maintenance, ALL cars stop working for the day.
Your car is an old model so the auth servers were shutdown, and you have to buy a new car.
You kid turned 16 and you have to buy him a brand new car, because the one you have isn't transferable.
You wife can't use your car, she has to buy a brand new one for herself.
All cars stop working after their 10 years lifespan. Even if you bought yours, new, 9 years into the cycle.
You can't rent a car or a truck. You can only buy one, at full price.

New cars are $30k instead of $35k. Wahoo! Rebate! I love this company!
 
Books, do i buy a license to read it once, would i accept a cheaper price if i could only read the book once.
Bicycle, do i accept a cheaper bicycle if i weren't allowed to let anyone else ride it.
Cars, same thing.
Clothes, we have clothes that have been worn by up to 4 babies, we are killing the baby clothes industry, they should be limited to one baby only?

All those items break down during use and require maintance .

A book's binding will break , pages will rip and so on

A digital book can't allways be shared unless you give someone else your e-reader and so on

Cars are the same thing. Oil changes , brakes , tires /rotation , gas , air filters , belts and so on and so forth all require more money going to the manufacturer or sub companys to support.

Clothes also become useless as time goes on. Yes an infinite number of babys can wear clothes but clothes start to fade / tear as they are washed and worn more and more. Then there are stains and other things that will prevent u from using them for multiple children.


A plastic disc is really hard to destroy through normal wear and tear. A digital download doesn't break down or wear away. You just keep downloading it till its offered no longer.


Anywhere else but games we would find these conditions to be stupid and unacceptable.

And what if they made the disc really brittle so that after so many plays you have to take it in to get it resurfaced. Same with the disc drive , after say 20 games you need to take it in to be oiled up and have the lense changed. That would put it more in line with your examples


The problem with games is that they are expensive, provide very little hourly value (they are short) unless they have a multiplayer aspect that makes people buy them. Loose essentially no value (doesn't show wear) except for online passes. They have a very short lifespan at full price and is simply abandoned when released.

This is true . So we come to a point , do we accept online passes and more and more nickel and diming us or do we let to used game market go away and see if we can't reduce the nickel and diming .

On the pc I've been paying less per game than at any point in my game playing history (which started at 8 and i'm now 31) . Lack of used games did not send pc gaming prices out of control

Imagine other products where there is no spares left after 6 months (patches to fix problems) the complete engineering team being fired after producing a car leaving no one left to care for the customers. How come we the customers are supposed to suffer for this when we buy just one certain product.

Why would customers continue to support the dev and publishers if that is the case ? If everyone buys cod 1 and it sucks and is broken and they rush out and buy cod 2 and its the same thing , they can only blame themselves.

If anything the used game market rewards this behavior cause they will buy the game play it for a bit and sell it to buy the next broken game and so on and so forth all the while bleeding money for broken games.

If games become less front loaded in revenue due to people buying them as they drop in price (no secondary market eating up profits at each lower price point) then game companies will have more incentive to continue to support the game to get a longer tail of profits . WIth no used games developers could continue making money all the way down to $10 games or even $1 games when they reach a point way down their life line. Just look at steam sales.

A lot of people make fun of Dyack but he was right . Games should be developed before they are even announced and when announced and shown the first time they should be feature complete and finished and they should then go through a bug test phase before release 6 months to a year down the line. It would prevent broken games from coming out

I will say it again, it's up to the game companies to solve the problem, yes, one way is locking down used games. In a way completely viable but then they should call it "rent a game", buy gamestop and rent out games, or do it via Digital Services. They could provide games that everyone else could buy at $1000 a pop. As long as they don't claim to be selling anything to me it's ok. But with the cunning plan we are discussing, they would rent you a game for $40.

Why ? The way steam works is fine. You release a game at X price point , recoup profits from it , as sales slow down you drop to Y price point and rinse and repeat. Unlike now there will be higher demand at each price drop due to no secondary market eroding the demand at the price point.

Right now if a game launches at $60 bucks and a used $50 copy appears a week later that used market will reduce the amount of sales the company will get when they drop to $50 bucks. When they drop to $50 the used game drops to $40 and those $40 sales are reduced for the new copy and so on and so forth.



Of course i would stay away from those games and platforms and go wherever i was accepted as a customer and not a tool to provide $ to a sick industry. I think the industry needs a real good kick in the balls, start to think games differently, (here i go on repeat, sorry) provide value OVER TIME, why not use the DLC's that they develop , or pull out of the game content, as a way to keep the game alive. Release it FOR FREE over time instead of milking the cow. Spend 80% of the budget on the game, and 20% on keeping it fresh.
Cause its not free to develop content ? Because you have the secondary market eating into sales all the while ? Right now if they do what you say the secondary market will stay alive and well and feed off the new content.

Anything resembling DRM that kills games over time when servers are dead or have moved on should be boycotted by every gamer in the world, real of non real gamer. And we should spread that message wherever we go.

Why ? I bought plenty of Nintendo games fully knowing that at some point in the future there wont be Nintendo's left to play it on.

I've done the same will all systems including the xbox 360 and ps3. The death of the server is the same thing as the death of the hardware platform. As long as it doesn't happen when the sequel comes out but instead at 5 or 10 years later I'm fine with it. Even better some companys will just patch the drm out.
 
The death of the server is the same thing as the death of the hardware platform.

I disagree your console breaks you can get another, but if the server shuts you have absolutely no alternative whatsoever plus the hardware is in your hands, the server is totally out of your control.
 
I disagree your console breaks you can get another, but if the server shuts you have absolutely no alternative whatsoever plus the hardware is in your hands, the server is totally out of your control.

what happens when there are no more of that console to buy ? When was the last time a new nes was made or super nes ?

Heck when was the last time a playstation was made ? Playstation 2 ?
 
Also Disc sales are just one piece of the pie of a movie's revenue stream.
Same with games, they have digital downloads and DLC, not to mention subscription services like COD Elite.

And also you're assuming that all industries have to be as profitable as other industries.
Not so, the film industry could well just be more profitable than games, doesn't mean the game industry should try and overturn first sale doctrine to suit them.

It's like if the airline industry (one of the least profitable industries in the world) was allowed to flout long held conventions of the law to 'even the playing field' since " our industry is so difficult to make any money in! Look how much the cruise ship operators rake in!"
....

And I disagree about the whole games are different because physical discs don't wear and tear.

Firstly, discs wear and tear at a different rate to say cars, but that doesn't mean they don't.
I'm sure a significant proportion of all new game discs sold get scratched/damaged (whether by faulty disk drives or mishandling) and can't be resold.
Of course there's then also cosmetic stuff like wear and tear of the case, the game manual etc

We just don't tend to notice wear and tear for games, since the usability of a game is quite binary - either a game disk is playable or it's not - if it's not you can't sell it so no one complains about worn out discs.

With other physical goods, there is a spectrum of usability, a used car might not run as well as it did when new but it's still usable etc.

And even with cars, sometimes there's negligible wear and tear.

For example I bought my car last Dec for $27k, the guy I bought it from got it only 10 months earlier for $35k. It had done only 3500km, was always garaged and in pristine condition - the difference in wear and tear between it and a new car is basically insignificant, in fact he had just broken it in for me.

So the wear and tear, and effect on usability of my second hand car would be just as much as the wear and tear and effect on usability of a second hand game disc - ie not much at all.

I'm sure the manufacturer would have liked to get a cut of this sale or block it - they didn't get anything (except the cost of honoring the warranty for the remaining 2 years) and otherwise I'd be forced to spend $35k and buy a new one.
 
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