Digital Foundry Article Technical Discussion Archive [2013]

Discussion in 'Console Technology' started by helio, Jan 5, 2013.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. scently

    Regular

    Joined:
    Jun 12, 2008
    Messages:
    934
    Likes Received:
    84
    Why won't MS provide low level access?
     
  2. joesiv

    Newcomer

    Joined:
    Nov 1, 2012
    Messages:
    55
    Likes Received:
    1
    While I'm not saying they won't, I could see why they wouldn't. Getting developers to use DirectX for Xbox development also reenforces their whole DirectX platform which includes windows games. By providing low level access, they provide developers ways of avoiding DirectX use all together.
     
  3. KKRT

    Veteran

    Joined:
    Aug 10, 2009
    Messages:
    1,040
    Likes Received:
    0
    Backward compatibility in future.
     
  4. Shifty Geezer

    Shifty Geezer uber-Troll!
    Moderator Legend

    Joined:
    Dec 7, 2004
    Messages:
    41,649
    Likes Received:
    12,657
    Location:
    Under my bridge
    And device compatibility (eg. Surface Pro, future Windows XBox store maybe).
     
  5. scently

    Regular

    Joined:
    Jun 12, 2008
    Messages:
    934
    Likes Received:
    84
    These are all speculation right?
     
  6. Shifty Geezer

    Shifty Geezer uber-Troll!
    Moderator Legend

    Joined:
    Dec 7, 2004
    Messages:
    41,649
    Likes Received:
    12,657
    Location:
    Under my bridge
    I suppose so, but why else do you limit your console's performance to a fat API while trying to build an ecosystem based on that same API in other sectors? ;) Note we had a developer a month or three back saying MS is not allowing low-level access
     
  7. Silent_Buddha

    Legend

    Joined:
    Mar 13, 2007
    Messages:
    16,620
    Likes Received:
    5,635
    Of course. :) Every single thing every single person is saying in here is based on rumors and incomplete information. Whether they think Durango will be good or will be bad, they are all speculating.

    Regards,
    SB
     
  8. scently

    Regular

    Joined:
    Jun 12, 2008
    Messages:
    934
    Likes Received:
    84
    Well the 360 uses dx9+ and despite this, they didn't restrict dev from having low level access. And where is this dev quote? would like to read it.
     
  9. Silent_Buddha

    Legend

    Joined:
    Mar 13, 2007
    Messages:
    16,620
    Likes Received:
    5,635
    IIRC, it was something early in the life of the X360. As well it was likely either a misunderstanding of what was said to the interviewer or a misunderstanding on the part of the person being interviewed.

    We've had multiple developers here that have mentioned going quite low level with the X360. Sebbbi for one I believe has done quite a bit with regards to what could be considered low level hardware access.

    I believe most developers choose not to do so just because the development tools on X360 were so good and there aren't as many performance cliffs that you can stumble across compared to PS3.

    Regards,
    SB
     
  10. scently

    Regular

    Joined:
    Jun 12, 2008
    Messages:
    934
    Likes Received:
    84
    Oh I do understand all that. Infact there is a thread that dealt with the issue of low level access on 360. From several of the comments above, it seems as if its been said somewhere that durango would not allow such low level access. I was just challenging Shifty's assertion about the implications of using dx11 on durango. My point being that even if they are using dx11 on durango, it will be similar to the one on pc as an api layer but how thick, heavy and flexible it will be will probably be very different as I suspect that the dx11.1x on the durango will expose the underlying hardware while possibly providing access to devs to go lower level if they feel like it.

    What I am saying in essence is that durango, for example, will probably dx11 in the same way that it will use the same windows 8 kernel as pc but it is not the same as the full fat one on pc.
     
  11. dagamer

    Veteran

    Joined:
    Dec 23, 2011
    Messages:
    1,261
    Likes Received:
    1
    Location:
    Houston, TX
    What exactly is "low level access" anyway? What could possibly be simpler than executing draw triangle commands via the DirectX API besides just filling registers with data?
     
  12. ERP

    ERP Moderator
    Moderator Veteran

    Joined:
    Feb 11, 2002
    Messages:
    3,669
    Likes Received:
    49
    Location:
    Redmond, WA
    It's a but more complicated than that these days.
    You wouldn't believe how complicated the hardware that sets up shader constants is....
    Having said that the idea of low level access is somewhat overrated, IMO there is far more performance in optimizing your data for the platform than there is in some mystical low level access.
    The somewhat larger issue is how multiple applications and the OS rendering requirements are handled.
     
  13. dagamer

    Veteran

    Joined:
    Dec 23, 2011
    Messages:
    1,261
    Likes Received:
    1
    Location:
    Houston, TX
    Isn't there some programming law anyway that says something like "given more and more power, the energy needed to extract those last bits of performance goes up exponentially" or am I just misremembering Ahmdal's law?
     
  14. MBDF

    Newcomer

    Joined:
    Dec 29, 2004
    Messages:
    175
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    North Vancouver, Canada
    Maybe because a certain other console won't be going that route.

    And it sounds as though Sony will be providing different levels of access depending on the comfort and/or willingness of the devs to go deeper or not.
     
  15. Rangers

    Legend

    Joined:
    Aug 4, 2006
    Messages:
    12,430
    Likes Received:
    1,228
    Doesn't make intuitive sense. Given more and more power, you become less concerned about extracting "last bits" anyway. Given an ocean of power, 95% of it is good enough, you dont need to chase that last 5%.

    It's interesting to think about. A lot of the work on PS360 is extracting that last 5%, because they arent powerful enough. Weirdly, I have thought next gen could in some ways decrease dev effort, not increase it.

    How much of 600 people on Assassins Creed are dedicated to squeezing one more ounce out of the aging, constrained, 360 for their super ambitious game? Arent frame rates often in the 20's for that game?

    I saw a recent Sweeney interview where he talked about some promising algorithm needing 20 teraflops to efficiently implement, vs the "1-2 teraflops" we currently have (matches with next gen consoles). Need for next-next gen already confirmed,

    Anyway, already OT...
     
  16. Silent_Buddha

    Legend

    Joined:
    Mar 13, 2007
    Messages:
    16,620
    Likes Received:
    5,635
    Not much. I'd be surprised if the engine team numbered greater than say 20 people.

    Everyone else is mostly there for art, animation, modeling, level design, etc.

    Regards,
    SB
     
  17. Shifty Geezer

    Shifty Geezer uber-Troll!
    Moderator Legend

    Joined:
    Dec 7, 2004
    Messages:
    41,649
    Likes Received:
    12,657
    Location:
    Under my bridge
    Couldn't find it, so it's just the realm of rumour at the moment. You're right that potentially MS could release a console that isn't compatible with the rest of their infrastructure, but I'm with Joker in thinking MS are setting up for a platform other than a console. As my speculation.
     
  18. Rangers

    Legend

    Joined:
    Aug 4, 2006
    Messages:
    12,430
    Likes Received:
    1,228
  19. patsu

    Legend

    Joined:
    Jun 25, 2005
    Messages:
    27,614
    Likes Received:
    60
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amdahl's_law

     
  20. dagamer

    Veteran

    Joined:
    Dec 23, 2011
    Messages:
    1,261
    Likes Received:
    1
    Location:
    Houston, TX
Loading...
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.

Share This Page

  • About Us

    Beyond3D has been around for over a decade and prides itself on being the best place on the web for in-depth, technically-driven discussion and analysis of 3D graphics hardware. If you love pixels and transistors, you've come to the right place!

    Beyond3D is proudly published by GPU Tools Ltd.
Loading...