Overstander
Newcomer
thats medium textures vr high/ ultra ones... they cry about that in several places of the video and seem to have forgotten that Alex uses medium textures.
Digital Foundry Article Technical Discussion [2023]
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Overstander
Newcomer
is it such a foreign concept to handle? This Ryzen 3600 / RTX 2070 super was living on borowd time in this cross gen period! And Third party Devs often do not make use of special console tech ,PS4s and PS5s low level API comes to mind. Same as load times - we know very well that PS5 can load high detailed levels in a second see Rift Apart, so EVERY OTHER GAME that does not load in under 5sec is not using PS5s low level API. Third Party Devs try to narrow it down to the best performance they can achieve across all plattforms . It is forced logic at this point o assume that PS5 will not be used to a 100% in such games.
On the other hand it is absolutly understandable how first party Devs get the time and budget to go down to the metal to make use of every single bit the console has to offer.
PS : why you try to drag down NXgamer? Do you doubt his knowledge ? Or do you just prefer Alexs Opinion over his ?
Unnecessarily high CPU usage is always a problem.
PC has Direct storage, now including GPU decompression. I don't know, but I'm guessing this game doesn't use it. Also, you pick the compression format best for your target audience. If you decide to use CPU only without DS, then you should pick the compression format that balances compression and speed the best. You don't just lob PS5 assets at the wrong software decompressor. You re-author your assets if necessary.
And it's exactly why the PC has Direct Storage - now with GPU decompression. And it's also why the PC has a range of none-Direct Storage CPU codecs that are tailored to PC strengths and weaknesses.
No-one is asking for the PS5 to be "castrated" - but we're happy to call out a PC port when it rather shits the bed.
I'd be interested to hear an "elaborate" opinion from you right about now, and not just some console warrior noises.
I'm going to ask you why a single mip map level of albedo reduction (saving about 75% of vram residency for that map if all mip maps are present) wasn't enough for medium.
And please don't talk about DF "crying". You might think you're striking with a hot iron of religious truth, but in truth we get this all the time. Our eyes are so dry we have to use B3D eyedrops.
Inuhanyou
Veteran
@Overstander
The reality is this is a bad port. Even beyond all the crashes and graphical glitches and weird t posing stuff, PC has all the tools to not be CPU limited like what they show in the video at the very least.
No game they have ever gone through has ever gotten 90 plus utilization of all cpu cores even in the best case scenario. If that actually was some supremely great CPU utilization, the PC would be showing fps higher than what the ps5 can put out. But instead it's got tons of fps drops
Which shows that this is not something that is a planned function of the engine on PC but a result of blowing out the CPU with bad optimization somehow. Something relating to simply slapdashing how the PS5 works onto PC isn't a sign of the ps5s advantages, it just shows a lack of care in making the code work on PC.
This is the same as the Bayonetta PS3 port where they just threw the 360 code onto PS3 with some very dirty cuts and called it a day even when it ran like absolute garbage because the engine was optimized for 360 and not PS3.
And the same was true for Skyrim with the crazy memory leak issue not accounting for ps3s split ram.
No one would sane would say these examples were a result of the 360 just being so much more efficient and better. As what matters are the results. It's a failure if you can't adapt to the platform you are targeting properly.
The reality is this is a bad port. Even beyond all the crashes and graphical glitches and weird t posing stuff, PC has all the tools to not be CPU limited like what they show in the video at the very least.
No game they have ever gone through has ever gotten 90 plus utilization of all cpu cores even in the best case scenario. If that actually was some supremely great CPU utilization, the PC would be showing fps higher than what the ps5 can put out. But instead it's got tons of fps drops
Which shows that this is not something that is a planned function of the engine on PC but a result of blowing out the CPU with bad optimization somehow. Something relating to simply slapdashing how the PS5 works onto PC isn't a sign of the ps5s advantages, it just shows a lack of care in making the code work on PC.
This is the same as the Bayonetta PS3 port where they just threw the 360 code onto PS3 with some very dirty cuts and called it a day even when it ran like absolute garbage because the engine was optimized for 360 and not PS3.
And the same was true for Skyrim with the crazy memory leak issue not accounting for ps3s split ram.
No one would sane would say these examples were a result of the 360 just being so much more efficient and better. As what matters are the results. It's a failure if you can't adapt to the platform you are targeting properly.
@Overstander We need enough data points establishing this type of disparity as the norm and not a rare exception to justify your claim. Given the available data across the breadth of games, your claim isn't justifiable.
Overstander
Newcomer
Do not seem as unaccesary high in context of the sheer amount of details in the PS5 Version. The Devs stated for example that they use for Joel and Ellie the Cutscene LOD in Gameplay. Also all other Assets of very high quality. Much higher than on other Games. Naughty Dog are wizards with this. Thats why Joel in TLOU2 was looking better than most if not all other Game Protagonists. If zlib is that much more effiecient the reason they went anyway with oodle must lie in project management. Maybe it was simply not possible to to transfer the Assetsdata to zlib. But again - i rather life in a world where PC Versions of PS5 First Party Titles ask for just a little bit more, than having a PS5 game developed with a comming PC Version in Mind ( with all the problems that might bring , look all the quad cores still in use or GTX 1060s out there). And suprise - the latter pathway would eventually also have the PC Version gimped because also the high class systems then would "suffer" from a port that could have aimed higher. PS5 first with all bells and whistles!! Then try to make the best PC Version possible based on that Version - if certain systems suffer they suffer.
As for Direct Storage - yeah thats a shame i would have loved to see it compare to first party PS5 usage. But the easiest explanation is mostly right. They might just not had the time to implement it. Or Project was started without it being a thing and the later turnaround would have taken to much resources , who knows
Oh - i dont have to be that elaborate - i dont release Youtube tech Videos about the matter. But i can criticaly ask questions . And if theres is bias to call out - iam sitting in the first row.
@ tech use - we simply have more third party comparisions than first party PS5 titles who made it to PC. I wonder for example how Ratchet and Clank would run on PC System. I highly doubt that the Ryzen 3 3600 / RTX 2070 super would be able to mimik PS5 Quality and FPS.
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Flappy Pannus
Veteran
The problem here is that it's not 'just a little bit more', if it was there wouldn't be this shitstorm.
Hecklers can be in the front row as well. For the questions that are even coherent, they're not 'critical' - it's just lazy platform warring nonsense, and raising points that have already been discussed ad nauseum earlier in the thread.
There are other first party titles where the disparity is much more acceptable. The fact that Uncharted 4 is similarly demanding for no discernable reason points to the issue being with this engine specifically and how Iron Galaxy/ND has ported it. I also stand firm on my opinion that this game would run very similar to TLOU 2 on a base PS4.
This is very inappropriate behavior for this forum.
Flappy Pannus
Veteran
The argument of whether this can be considered a 'bad port' or not because it may not have been financially feasible in the timeframe allotted to the project in order to rework the streaming system, at least whereby the CPU/VRAM restrictions of your average PC wouldn't be such a bottleneck is kinda beside the point imo.
The fact of the matter is, the bulk of PC gamers - and even that I'm completely excising older systems - are going to have ~8GB GPU's and 6 core CPU's. Naughty Dog knows this. Sony knows this. As such, you have to target your project, no matter how tightly tied it may be to the PS5's architecture, to at least run acceptably on this target spec if you plan to do a PC port at all.
That doesn't mean it runs exactly like the PS5 version on such a system - Spiderman doesn't, it requires more CPU grunt than an equivalent CPU in the PS5 to deliver the exact same RT performance - yet Alex considers it an excellent port. The problem with TLOU:RM isn't that a 2070 Super isn't matching the PS5 1:1 or the 5600X doesn't exhibit some dropped frames, it's that it's wholly inadequate to not even deliver close to a similar experience - the experience it delivers on such hardware resembles games from 10+ years ago at points.
Maybe given the market conditions and the budget allocated to ND for this, it was not possible to deliver this port without requiring Ada/RDNA-3 GPU's to deliver the experience expected. Ok fine - but that's certainly not what Sony advertised. The game is significantly more demanding than even the released recommended spec chart that received concern when it dropped. Sony is telling you what hardware you need, and it's just not true.
It's a bad port because it's a bad fit to the hardware that the majority of your target market shares, full stop. The fault may certainly have little to do with the developers, their hands may have been tied in trying to hit this schedule which is clearly focused on the TV series and they may have communicated this difficulty up the chain. But it's a bad port nonetheless. It's a product that's being sold for a hefty price, and runs very poorly on a huge swath of the userbase it's being sold to.
The fact of the matter is, the bulk of PC gamers - and even that I'm completely excising older systems - are going to have ~8GB GPU's and 6 core CPU's. Naughty Dog knows this. Sony knows this. As such, you have to target your project, no matter how tightly tied it may be to the PS5's architecture, to at least run acceptably on this target spec if you plan to do a PC port at all.
That doesn't mean it runs exactly like the PS5 version on such a system - Spiderman doesn't, it requires more CPU grunt than an equivalent CPU in the PS5 to deliver the exact same RT performance - yet Alex considers it an excellent port. The problem with TLOU:RM isn't that a 2070 Super isn't matching the PS5 1:1 or the 5600X doesn't exhibit some dropped frames, it's that it's wholly inadequate to not even deliver close to a similar experience - the experience it delivers on such hardware resembles games from 10+ years ago at points.
Maybe given the market conditions and the budget allocated to ND for this, it was not possible to deliver this port without requiring Ada/RDNA-3 GPU's to deliver the experience expected. Ok fine - but that's certainly not what Sony advertised. The game is significantly more demanding than even the released recommended spec chart that received concern when it dropped. Sony is telling you what hardware you need, and it's just not true.
It's a bad port because it's a bad fit to the hardware that the majority of your target market shares, full stop. The fault may certainly have little to do with the developers, their hands may have been tied in trying to hit this schedule which is clearly focused on the TV series and they may have communicated this difficulty up the chain. But it's a bad port nonetheless. It's a product that's being sold for a hefty price, and runs very poorly on a huge swath of the userbase it's being sold to.
At this point it seems like Sony would have been better off to have created a streaming only PlayStation Now* version even with the limitation that it would just be the PlayStation 4 version.
* = Stand alone purchasable title.
** = I don't even recall what Tier of the rebranded PlayStation Plus has the streaming functionality. Is it PlayStation Plus Extra or is it PlayStation Plus Premium? Also, did they stop offering the streaming service functionality entirely for the PC platform even if you have the highest tier?
davis.anthony
Veteran
It's just a shit port, a game that's 80GB in size using 10GB of VRAM and 12GB of system RAM on my PC.
There's no reason at all why the game has 25%+ worth of it's total install size in RAM at any given time.
The game has 12 chapters so 25%+ of the game in memory is enough to cover from the prologue at the start of the game all way to chapter 4 - Bills town.
It's mad.
There's no reason at all why the game has 25%+ worth of it's total install size in RAM at any given time.
The game has 12 chapters so 25%+ of the game in memory is enough to cover from the prologue at the start of the game all way to chapter 4 - Bills town.
It's mad.
I wish you were a good faith poster.Do not seem as unaccesary high in context of the sheer amount of details in the PS5 Version. The Devs stated for example that they use for Joel and Ellie the Cutscene LOD in Gameplay. Also all other Assets of very high quality. Much higher than on other Games. Naughty Dog are wizards with this. Thats why Joel in TLOU2 was looking better than most if not all other Game Protagonists. If zlib is that much more effiecient the reason they went anyway with oodle must lie in project management. Maybe it was simply not possible to to transfer the Assetsdata to zlib. But again - i rather life in a world where PC Versions of PS5 First Party Titles ask for just a little bit more, than having a PS5 game developed with a comming PC Version in Mind ( with all the problems that might bring , look all the quad cores still in use or GTX 1060s out there). And suprise - the latter pathway would eventually also have the PC Version gimped because also the high class systems then would "suffer" from a port that could have aimed higher. PS5 first with all bells and whistles!! Then try to make the best PC Version possible based on that Version - if certain systems suffer they suffer.
As for Direct Storage - yeah thats a shame i would have loved to see it compare to first party PS5 usage. But the easiest explanation is mostly right. They might just not had the time to implement it. Or Project was started without it being a thing and the later turnaround would have taken to much resources , who knows
Oh - i dont have to be that elaborate - i dont release Youtube tech Videos about the matter. But i can criticaly ask questions . And if theres is bias to call out - iam sitting in the first row.
@ tech use - we simply have more third party comparisions than first party PS5 titles who made it to PC. I wonder for example how Ratchet and Clank would run on PC System. I highly doubt that the Ryzen 3 3600 / RTX 2070 super would be able to mimik PS5 Quality and FPS.
DavidGraham
Veteran
In summary: very very long loading times, CPU limitations, very long shader compilation time, VRAM mismanagement and visual bugs .. it's the total package!
Why would a VRAM heavy title waste VRAM like this? On 8GB GPUs the game wastes 1.6GB on imaginary "system reservation stuff", on 24GB GPUs the game wastes 5GB! What the actual hell? who thinks like that? If I didn't know better I would say the game is intentionally sabotaging VRAM! 20% of VRAM is thrown in the garbage for absolutely no reason!
Why would a VRAM heavy title waste VRAM like this? On 8GB GPUs the game wastes 1.6GB on imaginary "system reservation stuff", on 24GB GPUs the game wastes 5GB! What the actual hell? who thinks like that? If I didn't know better I would say the game is intentionally sabotaging VRAM! 20% of VRAM is thrown in the garbage for absolutely no reason!
I’m spitballing but I’d guess Naughty Dog is brute forcing their streaming approach with the io subsystem and decompression on PS5. Moving the game over to pc is probably non-trivial, hitting the cpu hard with decompression and not playing nice with split memory pools. The whole asset streaming system probably needs to be totally different.
The part I don’t understand is the medium textures quality. They honestly look like a big showing the wrong mip level. The drop in vram for high to medium is too small to explain the massive drop in quality.
The part I don’t understand is the medium textures quality. They honestly look like a big showing the wrong mip level. The drop in vram for high to medium is too small to explain the massive drop in quality.
Every once in a while you need a reminder of the forum’s ignore function.
I really wonder how much work they're going to put into this game to try to get it up to par? I think about the way that Horizon launched, and where it eventually got to after enough time and effort... While I'm not sure they'll get this game to where it truly should have been, I think that they'll put a valiant effort into reducing most of the issues for most mid to high end machines.
But honestly... if they're smart.. they'll start rewriting and fixing the deeper core issues this engine/port has for the upcoming TLOU P2 and Factions games. It benefits them to do the dirty work now... because if TLOU P2 and Factions has anything close to the same issues as this one... it will absolutely sell like trash. Fixing TLOU P1 and making things right before they release P2 or Factions will help them in the long run.
But honestly... if they're smart.. they'll start rewriting and fixing the deeper core issues this engine/port has for the upcoming TLOU P2 and Factions games. It benefits them to do the dirty work now... because if TLOU P2 and Factions has anything close to the same issues as this one... it will absolutely sell like trash. Fixing TLOU P1 and making things right before they release P2 or Factions will help them in the long run.
Inuhanyou
Veteran
Stole my idea?
I already said previously they should have just ported TLOU remastered. It would have been a disappointment to some but the game would have ran well with little issues- Status
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