Digital Foundry Article Technical Discussion [2023]

[dobwal]

Yeah, I also thought their takes on mid-get consoles were really short sighted. This console is supposedly not coming out for another year and they're looking at today's game and tech, not forwards. No consideration for what AMD may have but have not yet revealed, no consideration for any bespoke hardware that Microsoft and Sony might want to drop in mid-gen.

We've seen games like Plague's Tale 2, Gotham Knights and the Matrix demo only run at 30fps on PS5 and Series X. The DF team made the point that games are running fine in the same breath as pointing out many games are cross-gen, which is why the current gen versions are probably fine. Not a single DF person spoke about developers making their second game for current gen consoles and thought to wonder about issues challenging developers now.

The economics of semiconductors isn't following its traditional cost reduction path. In 2020, the cost of a 5nm wafer from TSMC was estimated at $17K, it was $16K at the end of 2022. For 7nm the price per wafer was $9300 for 2020 but is now at $10K. If those estimates are true, it means any cost savings is mostly coming from yield improvements. 3nm is estimated at $20K with roughly a 2.34x density improvement over 7nm.

There seems to be no indication that the situation will improve going forward.

You are getting a 1.8X improvement in density for a 60% increase in cost or a 2.34X improvement for twice the cost. That doesn't account for any effect that may incur from moving from a more mature node to a new node in terms of yield. Nor does that take account of the lower production volumes that we typically see with premium or pro SKUs.

If either MS or Sony is planning for a pro model, they don't have a lot of transistors to play with if they decide to stay anywhere near the $500 price point.

My thought is that it's possible that the Pro rumors come from both Sony and MS having designs on deck just in case the other decides to release a new SKU. MS had an option for a lower performant version of the One X before it finally decided to release later than the PS4 Pro. So there may be Pro designs on paper somewhere.

 

[Deleted member 11852]

The economics of semiconductors isn't following its traditional cost reduction path. In 2020, the cost of a 5nm wafer from TSMC was estimated at $17K, it was $16K at the end of 2022. For 7nm the price per wafer was $9300 for 2020 but is now at $10K. If those estimates are true, it means any cost savings is mostly coming from yield improvements. 3nm is estimated at $20K with roughly a 2.34x density improvement over 7nm.

Consoles do not have to be wholly profitable at POS, economics mean the long-term ecosystem can subsidise hardware costs but with higher performance options you can pass more of that on to the consumer because there is always that lower tier base model as an alternative.

Any console gamers who care about higher/consistent resolutions, better RT, or higher framerate gaming - just like PC owners - can see a compelling reasons for midgen console hardware. A ton of games now support 120fps but the graphical concessions can be brutal. Similarly, the need for VRR shows that hitting 60fps can be struggle.

For those that don't care, continue to buy the November 2020 launch spec hardware.

 

[pjbliverpool]

Any console gamers who care about higher/consistent resolutions, better RT, or higher framerate gaming - just like PC owners - can see a compelling reasons for midgen console hardware.

I imagine the number of console gamers who care sufficiently about such things who aren't already PC gamers is too small to warrant a whole new SKU.

 

[techuse]

Didn't the PS4 pro and One X sell fairly low numbers?

 

[cwjs]

Great DF video -- not sure I understand presenting the hair shadow thing like its a bug, it seems like an obivous performance choice.

 

[Remij]

Consoles do not have to be wholly profitable at POS, economics mean the long-term ecosystem can subsidise hardware costs but with higher performance options you can pass more of that on to the consumer because there is always that lower tier base model as an alternative.

Any console gamers who care about higher/consistent resolutions, better RT, or higher framerate gaming - just like PC owners - can see a compelling reasons for midgen console hardware. A ton of games now support 120fps but the graphical concessions can be brutal. Similarly, the need for VRR shows that hitting 60fps can be struggle.

For those that don't care, continue to buy the November 2020 launch spec hardware.

I personally feel that with every continued console generation they're simply removing all the things that made the console unique in the first place. Before, there was a single console from each vendor, you loaded a game and played what the game the developers hand crafted for you. Now... multiple skus from each vendor, mid gen refreshes, multiple graphics/performance modes, RT modes, 120hz refresh modes, HDR modes... more graphical setting adjustments than ever before...

They're literally taking the simplicity of the console, which is its biggest strength, and adding needless complexity into the ecosystem... which is a lot of the reason why people buy them in the first place. You want to just turn on a game and play... not be forced to figure out which settings are better.

 

[Jay]

I personally feel that with every continued console generation they're simply removing all the things that made the console unique in the first place. Before, there was a single console from each vendor, you loaded a game and played what the game the developers hand crafted for you. Now... multiple skus from each vendor, mid gen refreshes, multiple graphics/performance modes, RT modes, 120hz refresh modes, HDR modes... more graphical setting adjustments than ever before...

They're literally taking the simplicity of the console, which is its biggest strength, and adding needless complexity into the ecosystem... which is a lot of the reason why people buy them in the first place. You want to just turn on a game and play... not be forced to figure out which settings are better.

Yet you can still just start the game and just play without going into options menu at all and have the experience you're talking about.
I want more options not less, but structured well in an advanced menu.

As for things like HDR, 120, etc nice to take advantage of it when available on your display.

 

[Deleted member 11852]

I personally feel that with every continued console generation they're simply removing all the things that made the console unique in the first place. Before, there was a single console from each vendor, you loaded a game and played what the game the developers hand crafted for you. Now... multiple skus from each vendor, mid gen refreshes, multiple graphics/performance modes, RT modes, 120hz refresh modes, HDR modes... more graphical setting adjustments than ever before...

I think it depends what individuals see as the defining aspects of consoles, but I would say that having more powerful versions of consoles that run games better isn't new. Atari did this with the 5200 and the 7200 and Nintendo have iterated models on several GameBoy devices.

But when it comes to A/V, just like watching movies, TV series or any other content, users are going to have a variety of different preferences so I understand why consoles have developed to provide more options for people. Whether that's more video settings options, or more powerful hardware.

For me personally, what defines a console is but grabbing a controller and gaming comfortably from the couch, combined with the low-maintenance, instant-on aspect. I can leave my PS5 for weeks/months and it keeps itself and games updated and they're ready to go when I want to play. My gaming PC regardless, of whether I intend to use it, I remember to turn on periodically so it can download and install Windows updates, Steam updates, Epic Game Store updates, U-Play updates - and all of the other client/front-end updates, then all the game updates.

 

[davis.anthony]

Yet you can still just start the game and just play.............

............after 2 day one patches and 13 subsequent patches.

 

[Jay]

............after 2 day one patches and 13 subsequent patches.

Wait for 2 weeks before playing.

I will say that it is a systemic issue that will only be resolved by gamers refusing to buy games if they a really rough at launch.
But most gamers aren't watching DF.
Guess enough media coverage may help though and giving games lower scores.

 

[Dr. Nick]

 

[Remij]

Really strange that the PS5 version released like that. Higher res than the Series X, but way worse IQ.. Surely they'll be able to get that fixed as it would seem like a bug with the reconstruction implementation. I still think this might actually come down to a difference in VRS implementation (hardware on Series X/PC vs software on PS5).. Yes, I'm probably the only person who thinks this game uses a form of VRS, resulting in the blocky-like artifacts that are evident in the PS5 version during certain situations while not nearly as evident in others.

Game looks and runs beautifully for me on PC, although there have been a few traversal stutters at certain points. Runs smooth as butter otherwise and looks quite a lot better than the other versions.. which IMO is better than having way fps ranging from 60 to 30. I'm only at the "return to church" part though.. remains to be seen how later areas hold up. Loving it though!

 

[pjbliverpool]

Yet you can still just start the game and just play without going into options menu at all and have the experience you're talking about.
I want more options not less, but structured well in an advanced menu.

Lol this is exactly the same argument I have been making for PC gaming for decades whenever someone complains that PC gaming is too complicated because you have to "mess with settings".

For me personally, what defines a console is but grabbing a controller and gaming comfortably from the couch, combined with the low-maintenance, instant-on aspect.

I wouldn't sat that's a particularly defining aspect considering you can do exactly the same with a PC. I'd say the more defining aspect is that a console is configured to work that way by default whereas you'd have to pre-configure a PC to work in that way which requires some level of PC knowledge.

 

[Cyan]

this is one of the very first games, or the first ever game where lighting quality is considered superior without RT, according to Capcom. RT Normal has okay quality but the worst of them all, RT High has slightly superior quality than Normal, and non RT lighting quality is the best of them. The lighting quality without RT is really good -so is with RT on-.

 

[Remij]

this is one of the very first games, or the first ever game where lighting quality is considered superior without RT, according to Capcom. RT Normal has okay quality but the worst of them all, RT High has slightly superior quality than Normal, and non RT lighting quality is the best of them. The lighting quality without RT is really good -so is with RT on-.

But the game doesn't utilize RT lighting.. it only utilizes RT reflections.

 

[davis.anthony]

I know some people on here are disappointed with the graphics in RE4 Remake but what I've played so far it does look a generational improvement over the RE2/3 Remakes.

And I must be the only one who likes Capcoms RT, I love how subtle it is.

I was playing the RE2 Remake off the back of RE4 Remake and on the way to the orphanage I got out of a bus and saw Claire's reflection on the bus silver body panels, it was that subtleness that I do like, the rt is there but it' not there at the same time.

 

[trinibwoy]

I wouldn't sat that's a particularly defining aspect considering you can do exactly the same with a PC. I'd say the more defining aspect is that a console is configured to work that way by default whereas you'd have to pre-configure a PC to work in that way which requires some level of PC knowledge.

I mostly game on PC from the couch and some console comforts can be easily replicated. Fast boot into Steam Big Picture for example. It’s nowhere near as consistent or streamlined of a user experience though. I also have EA, Ubisoft and Rockstar launchers installed. Most games don’t install with default settings appropriate for my hardware and display. There is no platform wide friend list.

As a PC gamer I cherish the control, scalability and flexibility of the platform but it’s almost impossible to configure it to act just like a console. It would require more work from OS and game developers.

 

[pjbliverpool]

I mostly game on PC from the couch and some console comforts can be easily replicated. Fast boot into Steam Big Picture for example. It’s nowhere near as consistent or streamlined of a user experience though. I also have EA, Ubisoft and Rockstar launchers installed. Most games don’t install with default settings appropriate for my hardware and display. There is no platform wide friend list.

As a PC gamer I cherish the control, scalability and flexibility of the platform but it’s almost impossible to configure it to act just like a console. It would require more work from OS and game developers.

I'm not suggesting it's as streamlined as the experience you'd get on a console. Only that it qualifies for the description "grabbing a controller and gaming comfortably from the couch, combined with the low-maintenance, instant-on aspect."

Regarding the multiple game clients, you should try using GoG. It integrates with most other clients including all the major ones (GoG, Epic, Xbox, Steam, Origin, Ubi, Amazon) so you can launch all of your games from a (better than IMO) Steam like interface. It'll even launch the games if Steam for example is sitting in it's often used "restart me because I've updated myself state". So you don't have to suffer the 1'Restart' mouse click and 5 second wait that frustrates DSoup so.

It will also group your friends from each game platform together under the one interface which I'll grant isn't the same as having a single platform and friends list.

On Steam Big Picture Mode, I've never liked it tbh. It's pretty limiting in it's interface, even in it's recently updated form. I prefer the standard Steam (or better, GoG) game tile view, and then use Steam controller companion to use my control pad as the mouse. If I auto hide the task bar and set the default screen to secondary (TV), then I can wake my PC from sleep (about 3 seconds) to be greeted with this screen on my TV every time, and from there select whatever game I want with the control pad and start playing pretty much straight away without ever seeing another game launcher. That's really not far off a console experience IMO.

Of course, that's not how I actually use my PC because I'd be giving up way too much of it's versatility. The reality is that GoG is usually minimised (and pinned) in my task bar and I control things from the mouse on my primary monitor screen (screenshotted below, hence the wide aspect ratio). The key point though, is I have the choice to use it however I prefer.

 

[chris1515]

 

[Dr. Nick]

The frame rate dips and tearing on the Series consoles, although they aren't a big deal during gameplay, leads me to believe that tools are still in the way. I understand if the Series S has issues, but if you get the same behavior on both the Series X and S, there has to be an issue that isn't just simply hardware and would lead me to believe the problem is in the software somewhere. Great video Olie.

P.S.
Can someone tell me if the Far Cry 5 update supports Quick Resume on the Xbox? While it is dirt cheap right now I have no plans on playing it anytime soon and therefore won't be downloading it until I am. 46.44GB