Digital Foundry Article Technical Discussion [2023]

[Remij]

Time, money, resources, marketing deals etc. they just don’t have enough to spend equal time on all releases so it has to happen after, largely because the game has stopped changing as it’s been released, so now they can just work on cleaning up the issues.

Small issues, sure. Games releasing like Callisto and Sackboy did? Perhaps they have their priorities wrong? Perhaps they need to work on management?

None of those are the consumers responsibility to be understanding of. At the end of the day they will do what they do... but don't be surprised at the backlash.

 

[cwjs]

It’s been a pretty consistent pattern that Sony releases pretty strong and Xbox and PC require patches months later to clean it up. If this is the pattern, it’s really just coming down to ps5 being the lead console.

If it was an API issue, then it would never be cleaned up. I don’t know if that makes sense.

Don't understimate gaps in tooling quality too -- if one platform is easier to identify issues on it's a lot more practical to make quick bug fixes vs risking spending an unknown amount of hours trying to confirm whether a given change is an improvement or a regression. Lead platform is definitely a huge factor of course.

Ah, so in other words stop complaining about things you don't understand.. to people who are in the position to fix it.

No dude, just "stop making specific demands you don't understand". I am also frustrated with the state of game performance on platforms like PC, I'm not out here yelling that it's caused by ue4 or lazy devs or dx12 or whatever.

 

[Remij]

No dude, just "stop making specific demands you don't understand". I am also frustrated with the state of game performance on platforms like PC, I'm not out here yelling that it's caused by ue4 or lazy devs or dx12 or whatever.

Well sorry, but developers/publishers aren't going to blame themselves...

You know full well UE4 has specific issues which trend across the vast majority of games releasing now on PC... When I see the EXACT same issue repeat again and again across dev studios, then there's obviously a common thread among them. DX12 and Unreal Engine 4. Why are we acting like speaking about these issues is taboo because it might offend Epic or UE4 developers?

As for "lazy devs"... How else am I supposed to take it when games release with terribly unacceptable performance.. and then get fixed one week later? Someone wasn't doing their job properly.. and if you think that's such an offensive thing to say, then there's not much else that can be said.

I get it.. developers get sick of hearing complaining about things that might not entirely be in their control... people deal with that every single day. The way to get issue fixed isn't to ignore it.. and as I've said... we're simply getting tired of this. Why should we just sit back and accept it? I simply can't fathom responses like "it's hard" and "we have time and budget constraints" as acceptable. It's not my responsibility. I comment on the quality of released products that I've either paid for, or am expected to pay for. I deserve to have a voice.

 

[Tahir2]

As for "lazy devs"... How else am I supposed to take it when games release with terribly unacceptable performance.. and then get fixed one week later? Someone wasn't doing their job properly.. and if you think that's such an offensive thing to say, then there's not much else that can be said.

Sounds like a management issue.

 

[Remij]

Sounds like a management issue.

Indeed. Management are a part of the team too, are they not?

 

[Tahir2]

So, what I mean is, that it is a bit unfair to call the developer lazy when management takes some decisions out of their hands.

 

[Remij]

So, what I mean is, that it is a bit unfair to call the developer lazy when management takes some decisions out of their hands.

I consider them one and the same. Again, I never specifically single out any developer or discipline. They all contribute to the development of the game.. and the release. Their internal issues are not my problem.

 

[Inuhanyou]

Time, money, resources, marketing deals etc. they just don’t have enough to spend equal time on all releases so it has to happen after, largely because the game has stopped changing as it’s been released, so now they can just work on cleaning up the issues.

The real question is if it's a matter of resources why would they put like 5 different modes in the game for each version you have to optimize for? Cut two or 3 of those out and actually focus on the game proper within reason

 

[snc]

The real question is if it's a matter of resources why would they put like 5 different modes in the game for each version you have to optimize for? Cut two or 3 of those out and actually focus on the game proper within reason

3 of then is just same version with uncapped frames, one of them is rt on but lower res, in the end Im happy they added 40fps mode as most devs doesnt care and its usualy mode I choose.

 

[iroboto]

Small issues, sure. Games releasing like Callisto and Sackboy did? Perhaps they have their priorities wrong? Perhaps they need to work on management?

None of those are the consumers responsibility to be understanding of. At the end of the day they will do what they do... but don't be surprised at the backlash.

My limited experience with game dev and having some close friends and family in AAA, the big hurt is when you need to restart or revisit big parts of the game.

I’ve asked if programming or graphics are generally a problem and he said no. It’s when you’ve spent over a year and a half working the game, only to restart and now you have 1.5 years less time now to get it out.

Incentives for bonuses are sometimes tied to review scores, or sales, so if the developers don’t feel it’s going to do well, aka, the game sucks as it is, they scratch it and start from square one, painful part is dx12 and apis are all graphically related, but they’re scratching the game because game design failed. New systems are made, which in turn demands new shaders, new effects, it’s a snowballing amount of work, so you start making compromises like, optimizing for lead platform and coming back and fixing the others after release.

 

[iroboto]

The real question is if it's a matter of resources why would they put like 5 different modes in the game for each version you have to optimize for? Cut two or 3 of those out and actually focus on the game proper within reason

Studios are very much companies and there are people in place who make decisions at each level. And not everyone is equal is what they deem important or what they know is important to gamers.

Typically a studio should have a “closer” type role, whose sole job is to come in and cut as much out once you hit a certain part of development. They stop feature creep and ensure that titles makes the deadline. If you’re a new studio, a lot of that may still be being figured out.

For whatever reason, I think it’s clear that with Callisto project the closer was only cutting to get the game out on time, they aren’t thinking about the visual artifacts and stuff and api stutter because the rest of the game isn’t close to complete. Then the deadline arrives and it’s too late for someone to come back to it.

Perhaps with more focus on these areas this may be a bigger part of the “closing” out part of development especially for those who aren’t aware. Awareness is the key!

 

[Remij]

My limited experience with game dev and having some close friends and family in AAA, the big hurt is when you need to restart or revisit big parts of the game.

I’ve asked if programming or graphics are generally a problem and he said no. It’s when you’ve spent over a year and a half working the game, only to restart and now you have 1.5 years less time now to get it out.

Incentives for bonuses are sometimes tied to review scores, or sales, so if the developers don’t feel it’s going to do well, aka, the game sucks as it is, they scratch it and start from square one, painful part is dx12 and apis are all graphically related, but they’re scratching the game because game design failed. New systems are made, which in turn demands new shaders, new effects, it’s a snowballing amount of work, so you start making compromises like, optimizing for lead platform and coming back and fixing the others after release.

Like I totally get that.. but it's not ok to release products with fundamentally don't work or are essentially broken in some way because of that. At the end of the day, a company is responsible for the product it puts out there. Which is why I'm not happy with this "release first fix later" mentality which seems to be becoming ever more pervasive, especially on the PC side. I mean, I can fully appreciate the difficulties that developers face every day, I'm a compassionate human being, as well as the fact that games are becoming ever more complex.. but that's always been a reality of progress.. and it doesn't give them the excuse to release a product which, according to me and my own opinion, is completely unacceptable.

I realize not everyone gets all up in arms about some stuttering here or there, however there's a growing trend that I see which I feel has tipped the issue over from being an annoyance here or there.. to an actual full blown issue affecting the functionality of the gameplay. It's an issue I feel needs to be addressed because it's so pervasive. I personally feel like this issue has been allowed to fester for far too long, and it's time draw a clear line that it's no longer going to be merely accepted without question.

I realize I get worked up about some issues, and perhaps this isn't exactly the forum to do it on.. but I don't speak like that to actual developers who directly respond to me. At least I'm not meaning to be an ass about it.. I just want things to improve and just sitting around being understanding hasn't been getting the job done for years. So here I am.

To be fair to me as well, for as much crap as I put out there, I also put out a heap of praise and gratitude out as well and always try to give developers their dues.

 

[iroboto]

Like I totally get that.. but it's not ok to release products with fundamentally don't work or are essentially broken in some way because of that. At the end of the day, a company is responsible for the product it puts out there. Which is why I'm not happy with this "release first fix later" mentality which seems to be becoming ever more pervasive, especially on the PC side. I mean, I can fully appreciate the difficulties that developers face every day, I'm a compassionate human being, as well as the fact that games are becoming ever more complex.. but that's always been a reality of progress.. and it doesn't give them the excuse to release a product which, according to me and my own opinion, is completely unacceptable.

I realize not everyone gets all up in arms about some stuttering here or there, however there's a growing trend that I see which I feel has tipped the issue over from being an annoyance here or there.. to an actual full blown issue affecting the functionality of the gameplay. It's an issue I feel needs to be addressed because it's so pervasive. I personally feel like this issue has been allowed to fester for far too long, and it's time draw a clear line that it's no longer going to be merely accepted without question.

I realize I get worked up about some issues, and perhaps this isn't exactly the forum to do it on.. but I don't speak like that to actual developers who directly respond to me. At least I'm not meaning to be an ass about it.. I just want things to improve and just sitting around being understanding hasn't been getting the job done for years. So here I am.

To be fair to me as well, for as much crap as I put out there, I also put out a heap of praise and gratitude out as well and always try to give developers their dues.

The challenge becomes what do you do when you run out of money? People won’t work for free. So you release. Make money to pay your studio. And then you go back and fix more stuff.

That’s why publishers are important, they can delay and keep the money flowing, where without one, you’re just asking people to work for nothing, it’s AAA not indie you know what I mean?

It’s very common to work for nothing in an indie because the return is a % of sales. But if you’re working salary and you get no percentage of the sales, all work halts
Once the studio is unable to make pay day.

Then again, publishers can tell you to wrap it up, it goes no further and no additional money is coming.
SW KOTOR 2 literally was chopped at the knees, and they completely cut out how it was supposed to end with something else entirely, which was head scratching for a lot of players, because it started so strong.

 

[Remij]

The challenge becomes what do you do when you run out of money? People won’t work for free. So you release. Make money to pay your studio. And then you go back and fix more stuff.

That’s why publishers are important, they can delay and keep the money flowing, where without one, you’re just asking people to work for nothing, it’s AAA not indie you know what I mean?

It’s very common to work for nothing in an indie because the return is a % of sales. But if you’re working salary and you get no percentage of the sales, all work halts
Once the studio is unable to make pay day.

Then again, publishers can tell you to wrap it up, it goes no further and no additional money is coming.
SW KOTOR 2 literally was chopped at the knees, and they completely cut out how it was supposed to end with something else entirely, which was head scratching for a lot of players, because it started so strong.

Do consumers really need to be understanding of that? Honest question. I'm not asking for much in my opinion. People are getting fed up with it.. is because typically issues are just ignored until they are put under pressure. Like the RE Village thing I've mentioned already in this thread. Capcom had no intention of fixing it, until hackers and DF proved that it WAS fixable.. and that it turned out to be mostly DRM related. Capcom didn't respond to ANY complaints from the players over the course of MONTHS. They obviously didn't care.. and that pissed me off greatly. Then after DF released the information far and wide... they sure got that fixed extremely quickly. We're seeing this stuff too often now..

PC gamers put up with a lot of issues as it is, and accept that it comes with the territory of a more open platform... but when you can call out issues typical of an engine, or an API, or developers themselves over multiple releases... you start getting frustrated and want answers about why nothing is being done.

I sympathize with them that development is hard, things don't always go to plan, mistakes happen, and so on... but regardless of the realities there are consequences. If the pervasive attitude becomes release first, fix later... then there's consequences to that. We shouldn't be accepting of it.

 

[yamaci17]

Interesting that series x performs similary to desktop PCs in CPU bound situations in hogsmeade and have enormous frame drops whereas PS5 is rock solid 60.

 

[Phantom88]

Missed Rich doing a video like this

It’s been a pretty consistent pattern that Sony releases pretty strong and Xbox and PC require patches months later to clean it up. If this is the pattern, it’s really just coming down to ps5 being the lead console.

If it was an API issue, then it would never be cleaned up. I don’t know if that makes sense.

That's pretty much what this is, most likely. You look at ps5 being fairly solid and then series X being pretty embarassing in all its modes. Then you look at PC and this game is the 3rd biggest singleplayer game in history, for steam. Which 99% certain puts PC as the premiere platform over any console. You would think devs would learn by now that PC can either be the best selling platform for their games or neck and neck with playstation and give it proper care for launch, not months after, when the majority of the playerbase has already played it

 

[Dictator]

Only reason XSX does not run as well is because it was not given the time needed.

XSX GPU is better at compute than PS5 and similar Low Level RT API beyond DXR, yet it struggles in the Mode that uses more of it (RT is compute bound on RDNA2) - i.e. the devs did not give it as much time. A little bjlit embarassing IMO to have it be so obvious much like it was with Callisto Protocol where Xbox and PC were obvious second class citizens for time andmMoney Investment.

 

[Remij]

Only reason XSX does not run as well is because it was not given the time needed.

XS XGPU is better at Compute than PS5 and similar Low Level RT API beyond DXR, yet it struggles in the Mode that uses more of it (RT is Computer bound on RDNA2) - i.e. the devs did not give it as much time. A little bjlit embarassing IMO to have it be so obvious mich Like it was with Callisto Protocol where Xbox and PC we're obvious second Class citizens for time and Money Investment.

Indeed. But apparently we can blame them, and have to just accept it.. as I'm learning here, because you see, if you look at it from a business management perspective (as I apparently should as a consumer).. they're making the right choice prioritizing the platform where there games will sell the most, right? Perhaps the lesser platforms will get fixed later... since the game has been completed and they'll have more time to focus on them. Or maybe not? Who knows? Depends how much of an issue is made about it I suppose!

 

[Karamazov]

Maybe PS5 is that easier to develop for, so when the PS5 version is in a "shippable" state, they release all versions, because publishers want the games to release as soon as possible.

 

[Remij]

Maybe PS5 is that easier to develop for, so when the PS5 version is in a "shippable" state, they release all versions, because publishers want the games to release as soon as possible.

When the PS5 version is shippable, they release all versions... that about sums it up and would explain a lot!