Digital Foundry Article Technical Discussion [2023]

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If PC is such a shitty platform to develop for, then I want to start hearing it directly from the developers. If they're not willing to say it, then I'm holding them accountable.
Definitely not a PC-only problem. Plenty of games are arriving on console a little hot, with stability and performance issues. The get-it-out-the-door-and-patch-it-later approach is mostly what I expect except of a few select developers and publishers.
 
It's not like dead space on PS5, forespoken and such dont have issues on console. Devs just have issues with stuff in general
 
If PC is such a shitty platform to develop for, then I want to start hearing it directly from the developers. If they're not willing to say it, then I'm holding them accountable.
Developers are unlikely to make such comments because they aren't gonna want to put out negative press about the platforms they are trying to sell their games on, ya know? "Yea, PC is such a pain to develop for nowadays, it's so hard to get a game in good working order. But also please buy our game on PC!".

You'll find plenty of comments around and about concerning many of the difficulties going on. I dont think there's any great mysteries here. DX12 combined with more expensive shaders and higher quantities of them, I/O limitations, ray tracing putting heavy extra demands on both GPU and CPU, etc.
Developers haven't all just stopped being competent or gotten lazy folks. It's weird hearing all this sort of Youtube comment section-level cynicism on a forum like this that should know better. Of course it's frustrating, but I'm sure developers are very much frustrated with the problems they're facing as well. Despite how most people think, developers actually do care and have pride in their work and want to produce the best result they can. If most every demanding game coming out nowadays is having issues, it should make it pretty obvious that there is indeed deeper technological issues going on.
 
Developers are unlikely to make such comments because they aren't gonna want to put out negative press about the platforms they are trying to sell their games on, ya know? "Yea, PC is such a pain to develop for nowadays, it's so hard to get a game in good working order. But also please buy our game on PC!".

You'll find plenty of comments around and about concerning many of the difficulties going on. I dont think there's any great mysteries here. DX12 combined with more expensive shaders and higher quantities of them, I/O limitations, ray tracing putting heavy extra demands on both GPU and CPU, etc.
Developers haven't all just stopped being competent or gotten lazy folks. It's weird hearing all this sort of Youtube comment section-level cynicism on a forum like this that should know better. Of course it's frustrating, but I'm sure developers are very much frustrated with the problems they're facing as well. Despite how most people think, developers actually do care and have pride in their work and want to produce the best result they can. If most every demanding game coming out nowadays is having issues, it should make it pretty obvious that there is indeed deeper technological issues going on.
Of course they aren't going to say it.... which is why I'm holding them accountable...

The point is.. if you're going to release a product on a platform... it should perform as it should.

Some developers certainly have stopped being competent and gotten lazy. You're forgetting that games like The Callisto Protocol ACTUALLY RELEASED IN THE STATE IT WAS IN AT LAUNCH.

There's a very simple lesson to learn here Seanspeed... and that is.. don't release the game until it is in an acceptable state. If you're releasing pure garbage like Callisto was, or Sackboy was, or DeadSpace is... in which NOBODY clearly tested the damn things after pressing the "launch" button... they deserve the criticism.. People are paying real money for this stuff.. and they're asking more and more all the time.. so no.. I'm not going to be understanding of whatever issues developers are having. Callisto was MASSIVELY improved within a week after launch... Sackboy was fixed in less than a week after DF released their video... What are we supposed to draw from that, huh?? If not that there's some real incompetency going on..

Sure, there's lots of developers who care.. I never said there wasn't... and your last sentence is EXACTLY why I stated what I stated... If the developers can't get it right and it's seemingly IMPOSSIBLE to release a game that performs properly because of the hardware and architecture... if they aren't willing to admit that, then they are KNOWINGLY RELEASING products which won't perform as they should to PC gamers. Why should I be accepting of that? Why should I have massive stuttering in my games when I know it's not supposed to perform like that? When they market these game, you usually don't see those issues.. because they play the games beforehand and build caches.. so even when you see PC gameplay you can't be certain the game is going to perform like that the first time you play it.

It's deceptive, and if they aren't willing to say the platform sucks.. then I'm putting the blame on them.. it's simple.
 
Some developers certainly have stopped being competent and gotten lazy. You're forgetting that games like The Callisto Protocol ACTUALLY RELEASED IN THE STATE IT WAS IN AT LAUNCH.
I think we need to differentiate between 'developers' making the game, and 'Developers' the company including management that'll make less-than-ideal decisions and for their 'developers' to release the game in a state they wouldn't if they had the choice. Of the men and women writing the code, I doubt there are many who are lazy, working slowly for short hours a week and pushing out a sub-par product because they can't be arsed to put in the effort needed to make it good. I think you have producers and business people making those calls along the development cycle.

It would be interesting to hear honest talk about when these issues start to manifest and when/how the devs can approach solutions during the cycle and how that impacts the business (are suits saying don't bother, just get it out the door, at the beginning of development or 4 weeks from release when stutter starts to appear from out of nowhere?).
 
I think we need to differentiate between 'developers' making the game, and 'Developers' the company including management that'll make less-than-ideal decisions and for their 'developers' to release the game in a state they wouldn't if they had the choice. Of the men and women writing the code, I doubt there are many who are lazy, working slowly for short hours a week and pushing out a sub-par product because they can't be arsed to put in the effort needed to make it good. I think you have producers and business people making those calls along the development cycle.

It would be interesting to hear honest talk about when these issues start to manifest and when/how the devs can approach solutions during the cycle and how that impacts the business (are suits saying don't bother, just get it out the door, at the beginning of development or 4 weeks from release when stutter starts to appear from out of nowhere?).
I know that the people writing the code usually aren't making those types of decisions, and that nobody wants to release a bad product.. however I'm not going to sit around and deliberate and worry about who to correctly blame at the risk of not hurting some feelings. When I say developers I mean the studio.. and the publishers. Everyone. That goes all the way from QA up to management. At the end of the day I don't care who's fault it is... I simply care that the product they sold to me isn't working as it should. They can deal with the issue of who was to blame.

Things only seem to get fixed when a very big deal is made about these things.. it's annoying that we essentially need Digital Foundry to make a video and criticize them, to get them to fix it. Hell, you almost need a DF video to convince certain PC gamers that there really is something wrong with the game itself and not user error... and devs/pubs know that. You can bet your ass they check the feedback coming in and make a decision of whether or not something is worth fixing. Half the time they don't even acknowledge there's an issue in the first place. Look at RE Village with the damn stuttering when killing an enemy or when the daughters would do their grab attacks... 100% reproducible.. it took hackers and Digital Foundry to bring attention to the issue and mock Capcom, making them look at best completely incompetent (because the hacked version fixed the issue), and at worst indifferent (they didn't care to fix it until it made them look BAD).. and it wasn't fixed for MONTHS. That pisses me off. They wouldn't have done a single thing if they weren't made to look bad.

So I don't feel sorry for devs/pubs. We're a long way away from me being worried about hurting some feelings. We need to fix this issue of releasing games in a terrible state and only being fixed later if there's an uproar.
 
It's weird hearing all this sort of Youtube comment section-level cynicism on a forum like this that should know better.

+1, it's not surprising how few gamedevs post here anymore. Constant deluge of trantrum level diatriabes about whatever mid budget game had a buggy launch in the last ~6 months and talking over anyone who tries to talk level handedly about the challenges.
 
+1, it's not surprising how few gamedevs post here anymore. Constant deluge of trantrum level diatriabes about whatever mid budget game had a buggy launch in the last ~6 months and talking over anyone who tries to talk level handedly about the challenges.
They stopped long before you got here.

Probably wouldn't be any of that if PC game releases weren't getting worse and worse.
 
I'm sure you of all people are well aware that some of the people posting about lazy devs have been around for decades.
I'm sure there are some lazy devs out there. You don't think so?

I think it's worse to hand-wave away any criticisms of developers as just more "lazy dev" rhetoric. In fact, the reason why a person might post here, would be to gain a bit more understanding from more technically inclined people, such as developers themselves, about such issues they face while allowing them speak in an uncandid way, to gain some insight into issues developers themselves are having, and how to get those resolved. I feel like developers could get their own issues fixed much quicker with the help of the gaming community bringing light to them.

I'm aware I have an abrasive posting style, perhaps too much for this forum nowadays. I like to vent my issues about the current state of the PC industry here, but I only do so with good intentions. Whenever I interact directly with a developer, here, or on twitter or discord, I'm always courteous and respectful. I don't blame any single one person for anything. I appreciate developers of the games taking time to respond to me. It's just that the general state of PC gaming right now is unacceptable.. and I've learned over the years that the only way anything gets done is by making an big issue of it.

If you listen to developers in their circles where they can speak candidly... they have far harsher criticisms of the hardware and software they're forced to use every day than I probably have on this forum about some games. I guess my issue is that I say what I think with my chest, and you seemingly can't do that anymore without upsetting people.
 

The console versions of this game certainly do seem to have issues in their own right. Particularly the Series X version. Looks again like DX12 is causing issues for developers whereas the PS5 version does a better job.

*Edit* also I can't believe in 2023 we're still getting 30fps encoded video playback regardless of the performance mode selected. Wouldn't it be better to encode at 60fps for the performance modes and then cap the FPS during cinematics for any 30fps targeted modes? It's so jarring abruptly going from one to the other. If it's a matter of limited storage space, then allow for a high quality 60fps video download.
 
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I'm sure there are some lazy devs out there. You don't think so?
Writing basic graphics/engine code to ship games? Not really, no, it's an extremely difficult job that requires wide, up to date knowledge and a lot of focus, and honestly doesn't pay very well compared to similarly difficult engineering jobs. The people who do it are motivated and skilled.

If you listen to developers in their circles where they can speak candidly... they have far harsher criticisms of the hardware and software they're forced to use every day than I probably have on this forum about some games. I guess my issue is that I say what I think with my chest, and you seemingly can't do that anymore without upsetting people.
The issue here is the combination of "speaking candidly" as you generously put it and lack of technical knowledge. When a developer rants about missing API features, or hardware decisions they don't like, or programming/development processes they think lead to worse code, yeah, they might upset someone, but they're having a high quality technical discussion about a subject they have knowledge about. When a random forum poster who works in non-games software or not in tech at all inserts themselves into the conversation and starts yelling about how unreal engine is bad or whatever it's useless and insulting.

At a basic level "devs aren't trying hard enough, devs need to do better" or even "devs need to achieve X, i've seen X achieved, they have no excuse" is just not high quality conversation or based in any kinds of factual reality. Most of the things the angrier posters here demand for have big tradeoffs, frequently opposed to other things they ask for. Posters also take any complaint a dev has out of context due to a lack of technical knowledge -- they see developer A say something is "difficult" and turn around and call developer B lazy or unskilled because they don't do the "hard" thing -- aside from like, sticking their nose where it doesn't belong, the posters frequently misunderstand developer A. Difficult problems in software are usually "difficult" in terms of, "this requires we radically change our process for a whole game" or "this expands the possibility for bugs beyond what can be reasonably tested on every project" or "this has tradeoffs we have to careflly work around -- it introduces better perfomance in case A, but worse performance in case B, however with enough resources we can avoid case B happening on this specific game"

Maybe a particular game avoid shader stutter because it has less shader variants because it doesn't contain transparent surfaces that are also, whatever, skinned characters or something, it has very consistent content (all opaque, little vertex animation, few fundamentally different types of FX, etc,) it doesn't expose certain things in the options menu, etc.

Maybe a game has very stable performance becasue it doesn't support certain out of date hardware, it uses techniques which aren't available on PC without using a ton of VRAM, or bandwidth, or scaling very poorly at high resolutions, etc.

Maybe a game is scalable up to a locked ~120fps without ever stuttering towards 60 because the game design excludes certain physics situations, doesn't have a complex animation system, has content which allows very controlled streaming, etc.

Maybe some combination of ambitious tech and workflow changes that makes a game look very cutting edge has added risk of things going wrong and the project going over estimate, and shipping without every high priority bug fully locked down!

None of the conversations on this forum are up to this level of technical understanding, but at least the ones that are interested in hearing what devs have to say, curious, open minded, and speculating are less infuriating than the ones that are furiously angry about whatever tradeoff they don't like this month.
 
+1, it's not surprising how few gamedevs post here anymore. Constant deluge of trantrum level diatriabes about whatever mid budget game had a buggy launch in the last ~6 months and talking over anyone who tries to talk level handedly about the challenges.

Were there ever that many? DeanoC? Repi? I don't remember the console sub-forums here were ever bustling hive of game devs talking shop. I think people have simply migrated away from forums generally because a well filtered Twitter feed mostly gets the job done and allows far greater reach if you're wanting a consensus on a question.
 

The console versions of this game certainly do seem to have issues in their own right. Particularly the Series X version. Looks again like DX12 is causing issues for developers whereas the PS5 version does a better job.

*Edit* also I can't believe in 2023 we're still getting 30fps encoded video playback regardless of the performance mode selected. Wouldn't it be better to encode at 60fps for the performance modes and then cap the FPS during cinematics for any 30fps targeted modes? It's so jarring abruptly going from one to the other. If it's a matter of limited storage space, then allow for a high quality 60fps video download.
It’s been a pretty consistent pattern that Sony releases pretty strong and Xbox and PC require patches months later to clean it up. If this is the pattern, it’s really just coming down to ps5 being the lead console.

If it was an API issue, then it would never be cleaned up. I don’t know if that makes sense.
 
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Hopefully for XBox's sake there's enough business incentive for devs to not let the gap grow too much. I wonder if it would lead to PS5 owners being more likely to preorder sight-unseen given there's a better track record for software's launch state.
 
Writing basic graphics/engine code to ship games? Not really, no, it's an extremely difficult job that requires wide, up to date knowledge and a lot of focus, and honestly doesn't pay very well compared to similarly difficult engineering jobs. The people who do it are motivated and skilled.


The issue here is the combination of "speaking candidly" as you generously put it and lack of technical knowledge. When a developer rants about missing API features, or hardware decisions they don't like, or programming/development processes they think lead to worse code, yeah, they might upset someone, but they're having a high quality technical discussion about a subject they have knowledge about. When a random forum poster who works in non-games software or not in tech at all inserts themselves into the conversation and starts yelling about how unreal engine is bad or whatever it's useless and insulting.

At a basic level "devs aren't trying hard enough, devs need to do better" or even "devs need to achieve X, i've seen X achieved, they have no excuse" is just not high quality conversation or based in any kinds of factual reality. Most of the things the angrier posters here demand for have big tradeoffs, frequently opposed to other things they ask for. Posters also take any complaint a dev has out of context due to a lack of technical knowledge -- they see developer A say something is "difficult" and turn around and call developer B lazy or unskilled because they don't do the "hard" thing -- aside from like, sticking their nose where it doesn't belong, the posters frequently misunderstand developer A. Difficult problems in software are usually "difficult" in terms of, "this requires we radically change our process for a whole game" or "this expands the possibility for bugs beyond what can be reasonably tested on every project" or "this has tradeoffs we have to careflly work around -- it introduces better perfomance in case A, but worse performance in case B, however with enough resources we can avoid case B happening on this specific game"

Maybe a particular game avoid shader stutter because it has less shader variants because it doesn't contain transparent surfaces that are also, whatever, skinned characters or something, it has very consistent content (all opaque, little vertex animation, few fundamentally different types of FX, etc,) it doesn't expose certain things in the options menu, etc.

Maybe a game has very stable performance becasue it doesn't support certain out of date hardware, it uses techniques which aren't available on PC without using a ton of VRAM, or bandwidth, or scaling very poorly at high resolutions, etc.

Maybe a game is scalable up to a locked ~120fps without ever stuttering towards 60 because the game design excludes certain physics situations, doesn't have a complex animation system, has content which allows very controlled streaming, etc.

Maybe some combination of ambitious tech and workflow changes that makes a game look very cutting edge has added risk of things going wrong and the project going over estimate, and shipping without every high priority bug fully locked down!

None of the conversations on this forum are up to this level of technical understanding, but at least the ones that are interested in hearing what devs have to say, curious, open minded, and speculating are less infuriating than the ones that are furiously angry about whatever tradeoff they don't like this month.
Ah, so in other words stop complaining about things you don't understand.. to people who are in the position to fix it. :rolleyes:

Basically... accept what's shoveled out to you... because game dev is hard :cry:

It's not my responsibility to give a damn about how hard life is for developers dude... I think on the other hand it actually speaks more to the fact that I in particular at least ATTEMPT to have people smarter to me explain what the real difficulties are.. so at least I could be a bit more understanding. However, at the end of the day, it's not my damn problem. None, of anything you mentioned is a reasonable excuse.

Again, apply it to ANY other discipline... any other products. You'd bitch and complain if X, Y, or Z doesn't work as intended and you bought it... correct? Should you have to care enough to understand WHY? Should you need a degree in whichever discipline is pertinent to the issue to have an opinion and voice it? Do I need to be an engineer or mechanic to complain about a new car I bought breaking down or consistently having issues it shouldn't? I know how a car is supposed to drive...

Why are you acting like people who are finally speaking out enough about this stuff haven't given them (developers/publishers) ample chances in the past.. like as if this is some new thing that people are suddenly pissed off about . We're TIRED from having pushed issues aside and just accepted them for years and years. It's gotten to the point where it's unacceptable now. Literally every release has issues... people demand answers. Some will just go to consoles and dump PC.. others care enough about the platform AND believe that the problem is something that can largely mitigate. That it isn't just something to simply accept as a reality of the platform. We've seen it time and time again where games get fixed after releasing in a completely unacceptable state. Sometimes spectacularly soon after launch... which begs the question.. WHY did it release like that?

How much more do we have to endure? How about developers start coming forward and having some dialogue about it? How about we figure out compromises.. how about we put some pressure on the powers that be to make it easier for developers to do their jobs to the best of their abilities.. You've got it all wrong if you think it's about attacking developers.
 
Hopefully for XBox's sake there's enough business incentive for devs to not let the gap grow too much. I wonder if it would lead to PS5 owners being more likely to preorder sight-unseen given there's a better track record for software's launch state.
Growing pains. It should resolve itself over time as more developers continue to migrate fully to dx12. These are just lessons being learned.
 
It’s been a pretty consistent pattern that Sony releases pretty strong and Xbox and PC require patches months later to clean it up. If this is the pattern, it’s really just coming down to ps5 being the lead console.

If it was an API issue, then it would never be cleaned up. I don’t know if that makes sense.
You may be right. It just seems like the Xbox versions tend to share a bit more in common with the PC versions, and DX12 is a common thread between them.

If devs are prioritizing PS5 versions to the point where they don't have stuttering and big FPS drops, while the other versions do... then perhaps there's some questions to be asked about why they're releasing them in that state to begin with, no?
 
It’s been a pretty consistent pattern that Sony releases pretty strong and Xbox and PC require patches months later to clean it up. If this is the pattern, it’s really just coming down to ps5 being the lead console.

If it was an API issue, then it would never be cleaned up. I don’t know if that makes sense.

Haven't DF already shown games running better on XSX due to updated API version?

But the API would be updated and improved with time anyway so games would naturally see an improvemnt.
 
You may be right. It just seems like the Xbox versions tend to share a bit more in common with the PC versions, and DX12 is a common thread between them.

If devs are prioritizing PS5 versions to the point where they don't have stuttering and big FPS drops, while the other versions do... then perhaps there's some questions to be asked about why they're releasing them in that state to begin with, no?
Time, money, resources, marketing deals etc. they just don’t have enough to spend equal time on all releases so it has to happen after, largely because the game has stopped changing as it’s been released, so now they can just work on cleaning up the issues.
 
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