Digital Foundry Article Technical Discussion [2023]

[cheapchips]

I'd love to know if FSR2 for XSX takes advantage of the extra ML grunt that the XSX has?

FSR2 isn't ML based, so no. Part of the philosophy of the solution is that it doesn't require dedicated ML hardware.

XSX isnt some sort of ML powerhouse. It's int modes just make it less worse than PS5 if someone chooses to take advantage.

 

[davis.anthony]

Series-X has half the ML performance of an RTX 2060 so I wouldn't say Microsoft went large with ML.

I've also previously questioned if having half the INT4 performance of an RTX 2060 is even enough to do ML based upscaling at a decent enough frame time to make using it actually viable.

If takes just as much, or more frame time to upscale then it saves you, then arguably it's a pointless thing to use.

I think this is the reason we've not seen an in house ML based upscaler for consoles, the real world performance just isn't there.

 

[tuna]

One of Sony mistakes not to buy Ready at Dawn. Order 1886 was clearly rush with repeating boss fights and strange abrupt ending. Sequel on ps5 could be awsome.

Yeah, Ready at Dawn has done so much great stuff since then.

They obviously could not deliver their vision on time and budget. Compare that to Naughty Dog.

 

[GuardHei]

Er, I don't know about the whole "Sony should've bought Ready at Dawn" argument. Yes, the tech was super impressive, but the gameplay itself is mediocre at best. I don't want to be mean, but all I remember from 1886 was the rough and boring cover-based shooting gameplay where the control felt bad with little to no strategy involved. It's one of those games better to be watched than played.

 

[function]

Series-X has half the ML performance of an RTX 2060 so I wouldn't say Microsoft went large with ML.

I've also previously questioned if having half the INT4 performance of an RTX 2060 is even enough to do ML based upscaling at a decent enough frame time to make using it actually viable.

If takes just as much, or more frame time to upscale then it saves you, then arguably it's a pointless thing to use.

I think this is the reason we've not seen an in house ML based upscaler for consoles, the real world performance just isn't there.

Matching DLSS2 would be a big ask - it's matured to be a pretty amazing technology. But simply providing something better than FSR2's balanced or high performance modes might be a lot more doable.

There are games like Ratchet and Clank where DP4A accelerated "basic" cross platform XeSS seems to be coming in ahead of both FSR2 and ND's in house upscaler. It's nothing like the jump to DLSS, but it's a sign that better than FSR2 might be doable in general on a system like XSX/XSS or PC RDNA2+ hardware.

Problem is, Nvidia aren't going to release a software optimised version of DLSS to run on consoles, and Intel want to maintain a large advantage for their hardware XeSS and so won't open sauwce a version of XeSS not optimised for lower end GPUs (like their integrated stuff). The fact that some people prefer XeSS to FSR even on Steam Deck is probably a sign that more could be done with the hardware we have.

The gap between balanced/performance DLSS and balanced/performance FSR is so big that I think there's room to use the mixed precision formats on XSerises to improve upscaling even if you never reach DLSS quality.

 

[snc]

Er, I don't know about the whole "Sony should've bought Ready at Dawn" argument. Yes, the tech was super impressive, but the gameplay itself is mediocre at best. I don't want to be mean, but all I remember from 1886 was the rough and boring cover-based shooting gameplay where the control felt bad with little to no strategy involved. It's one of those games better to be watched than played.

Gameplay was meh but they nailed not only graphics but also atmoshpere/lore, is not that easy. With gameplay guys from guerilla or noughty dog could help them potentialy.

 

[Nesh]

Er, I don't know about the whole "Sony should've bought Ready at Dawn" argument. Yes, the tech was super impressive, but the gameplay itself is mediocre at best. I don't want to be mean, but all I remember from 1886 was the rough and boring cover-based shooting gameplay where the control felt bad with little to no strategy involved. It's one of those games better to be watched than played.

The game was pretty much rushed to meet release deadlines and it was their first attempt to their own IP and their first attempt on a next gen console.
Remember where Guerilla used to be and how they ended up. Shellshock: Nam '67 was a bad game, and the first Killzone game was a mixed bag.
I feel that Ready at Dawn had more potential. All their games except 1886 had great reviews. 1886 showcased a studio with huge potential.

 

[Seanspeed]

The game was pretty much rushed to meet release deadlines and it was their first attempt to their own IP and their first attempt on a next gen console.
Remember where Guerilla used to be and how they ended up. Shellshock: Nam '67 was a bad game, and the first Killzone game was a mixed bag.
I feel that Ready at Dawn had more potential. All their games except 1886 had great reviews. 1886 showcased a studio with huge potential.

Sony doesn't accept anything that isn't an undeniable critical success anymore, sadly. No more giving developers time to grow and progress a franchise. They want immediate blockbuster hits and anything less is not good enough. It's a really bad way to go about things, in my opinion, and I feel will bite them over time. Especially as they throw so much more investment into live service games, which even more than single player games are very hard to 'hit' on.

I mean, imagine if Naughty Dog was never given a second shot at Uncharted because the first game was quite rough and janky? It probably would have changed the whole course of not just the studio, but also the whole of Sony's 1st party direction and even many trends in the industry in general.

 

[snc]

Sony doesn't accept anything that isn't an undeniable critical success anymore, sadly.

Yes and thats mistake imo. Because of that they closed Evolution studio (driveclub was briliant just need more time as premiere was rough) and canceled Days Gone 2 tough imo after bug fixes was very good game that deserved sequel.

 

[Deleted member 11852]

I liked Days Gone and it is a shame there won't be a second game with a tighter story and more mechanics, but I as I said back in 2018 following E3, I thought it was bad planning that Sony simultaneously green-lit two 'serious' driving games (Driveclub and Gran Turismo) and two story-driven, post-apocalyptic, zombie-monster, looting-crafting games (Days Gone and The Last of Us Part 2).

They were different games but that's not a lot of variety in first person studio lineup. I would prefer a Days Gone 2 over a The Last of Us Part 3, but we are where we are.

 

[Nesh]

Sony doesn't accept anything that isn't an undeniable critical success anymore, sadly. No more giving developers time to grow and progress a franchise. They want immediate blockbuster hits and anything less is not good enough. It's a really bad way to go about things, in my opinion, and I feel will bite them over time. Especially as they throw so much more investment into live service games, which even more than single player games are very hard to 'hit' on.

I mean, imagine if Naughty Dog was never given a second shot at Uncharted because the first game was quite rough and janky? It probably would have changed the whole course of not just the studio, but also the whole of Sony's 1st party direction and even many trends in the industry in general.

The live service thing especially worries me.

 

[SmooTh]

 

[Riddlewire]

It didn't take Squanch Games very long to fix that camera issue on Xbox. I suspect PS5 will be fixed with equal haste.

 

[snc]

They were different games but that's not a lot of variety in first person studio lineup. I would prefer a Days Gone 2 over a The Last of Us Part 3, but we are where we are.

Like a lot Days Gone but that is blasphemy

 

[Flappy Pannus]

I liked Days Gone and it is a shame there won't be a second game with a tighter story and more mechanics, but I as I said back in 2018 following E3, I thought it was bad planning that Sony simultaneously green-lit two 'serious' driving games (Driveclub and Gran Turismo) and two story-driven, post-apocalyptic, zombie-monster, looting-crafting games (Days Gone and The Last of Us Part 2).

They were different games but that's not a lot of variety in first person studio lineup. I would prefer a Days Gone 2 over a The Last of Us Part 3, but we are where we are.

Yeah, same. I love Days Gone but I get the critique it received, it has a lot of flaws even with the tech issues at launch being fixed through patches and brute force (PC/PS5). Just a game that scratched a particular itch for me in terms of exploration and the 'feel' of the combat so I could largely overlook the pacing/story issues. TLOU2's combat was not enjoyable enough to overcome the somewhat similar issues I had with it.

 

[techuse]

The PC version game intermittently speeds up and/or slows down which I don’t think was ever fixed. That sounds like a rather large problem.

 

[Flappy Pannus]

The PC version game intermittently speeds up and/or slows down which I don’t think was ever fixed. That sounds like a rather large problem.

There are some rare occasions where this still happens (such as approaching some settlements), but in the majority of gameplay I haven't seen this. Certainly nothing at all like what Alex showed in his DF video. Do you have it on PC?

There is one very annoying aspect for gamepad players on PC that was never fixed though, and that is the activation zone for holding the button for picking up items is significantly smaller than the PS5. Basically if you're jogging/running and you're approaching an ammo/consumable you want to grab, on the PS5 you can hold down the pick-up button well before the object is highlighted, and Deacon will whip out his arm and grab it without breaking stride, or automatically snap to the area to nab it - on the PC you basically have to stop moving and hover over it to grab. Luckily, it still works when running towards the bike to jump on it which is the most crucial when being chased, but for every object it ignores the button press unless the glyph has appeared on the screen. Bloody obnoxious. But that, and the broken vsync which produces stutters (force it from the CP) are about the only issues I still see with it.

 

[Silent_Buddha]

I liked Days Gone and it is a shame there won't be a second game with a tighter story and more mechanics, but I as I said back in 2018 following E3, I thought it was bad planning that Sony simultaneously green-lit two 'serious' driving games (Driveclub and Gran Turismo) and two story-driven, post-apocalyptic, zombie-monster, looting-crafting games (Days Gone and The Last of Us Part 2).

They were different games but that's not a lot of variety in first person studio lineup. I would prefer a Days Gone 2 over a The Last of Us Part 3, but we are where we are.

Yup now that I have played both (Days gone for 10's of hours and TLOU I can't force myself to play for more than the hour that I tried it).

Days Gone is a pretty fun Zombie Apocalypse game that looks decent but with some reconstruction artifacts. I'd play a second one.

TLOU was a great looking game that just wasn't fun or interesting to play (for me). So, I have little interest in trying anything past the first game other than to look at the game and then uninstall it. I did like watching someone else play it just to see how the story played out, though. I'd watch a TLOU movie (what I basically did), but would not force myself to play through the game (ugh).

IMHO, Days Gone is the superior game even if the TLOU games look better.

Regards,
SB

 

[I'mDudditz!]

The Order was a very good tech showpiece for it's time and champion of PBR but for ideas in favor of re introducing the franchise, it is best to let sleeping dogs lie. Same goes for Days Gone. Appreciate for what it is but it was unworthy to continue as a franchise.

 

[davis.anthony]

I also loved Days Gone, a little slow to start as the first 2-3 hours were a drag but I would happily welcome a sequel.