Digital Foundry Article Technical Discussion [2022]

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jesus christ

Yes I was shocked by this. But only after a long delay.

Great video though and really interesting to see the how the consoles perform here. Makes the PC's performance look much more favourable.

The 12900k seems to be pretty much doubling the consoles performance in Novograd while even the 3600x seems to be at least matching them. And that's with higher RT settings enabled on the PC version too which as shown by Alex's video do have a significant impact on CPU performance - 61fps with just RTXGI+RTAO like the consoles down to 55fps with all RT enabled. And that's assuming the RTXGI+RTAO are at the same quality levels as the consoles which I don't believe to be the case either.

So if anything the consoles seem to be punching quite a way below their weight here compared with the PC version.
 
So basically the PC is performing as it should hardware aligned with console. The main issue with PC seems to be that RT features can't be disabled individually so it gives the impression that RT is more demanding than it is.

PS5 and series X need a bit more optimization for their 60fps modes and more than a bit for their 30fps modes. But with VRR performance mode already seems pretty good. I am not really sensitive to 60fps drops myself unless they are generally below 50
 
So basically the PC is performing as it should hardware aligned with console.

I'm not even sure I'd say that as i wouldn't expect a 3600x (6 core Zen2) to seemingly outperform the consoles by such a margin in CPU bound situations.

The main issue with PC seems to be that RT features can't be disabled individually so it gives the impression that RT is more demanding than it is.

The features can be disabled individually, (i.e. RTAO, RT Shadows, RT Reflections) but they just can't be scaled on an individual basis. Even just a 'High' and 'Low' setting for each feature would be highly welcome.

On a separate note, does anyone know if the PC version used the consoles RT setting SSR when RT shadows are disabled? Or are we left with the crappy performance mode reflections? That SSR on consoles looks pretty good.
 
I'm not even sure I'd say that as i wouldn't expect a 3600x (6 core Zen2) to seemingly outperform the consoles by such a margin in CPU bound situations.



The features can be disabled individually, (i.e. RTAO, RT Shadows, RT Reflections) but they just can't be scaled on an individual basis. Even just a 'High' and 'Low' setting for each feature would be highly welcome.
Really? But I was hearing elsewhere that you couldent enable RT features on PC without RTGI being on by default..maybe I had wrong info..

On another note, I'm glad certain things like textures, draw distance and general fidelity seem to be improved on console even in performance mode.

It shows that people comparing the performance they get to the original game is also flawed for that reason. There is a lot of stuff cdpr added to the game by default which bumps up hw requirements it seems
 
Really? But I was hearing elsewhere that you couldent enable RT features on PC without RTGI being on by default..maybe I had wrong info..

Yes that has to be on to enable the others but you can have it on its own, or in any combination with the others.

I understand the BHV generation is tied to the RTXGI which is likely why its so relatively expensive.
 
Yes that has to be on to enable the others but you can have it on its own, or in any combination with the others.

I understand the BHV generation is tied to the RTXGI which is likely why its so relatively expensive.
I guess my question is why RT can't be enabled without RTGI being on. In other games devs seem to be able to bolt on individual RT features without needing a global GI solution
 
This is a pure slander attack. If someone is responds to my facts with purposely smug foolishness, I have every right to call them out as a troublemaker and a baby who wants their results without facts to report for back up. What else do you call an adamant person who has no techs facts? It is fine I am done arguing over this I understand what this place is and who gets the protection and freedom.

You can also be the better person and respond with civility.

Keep in mind that not all things are in black and white and opinions differ on many things as there are generally many different ways to attain the same result with one method being superior in X scenarios but worse in Y scenario and ambivalent in Z scenario.

For example fast SSD access for streaming textures is great if the pool of data you want to stream in is larger than your available pool of memory. Consoles are cost constrained devices and currently memory is priced at a relative premium. This means that fast SSD access is essential in improving certain aspects of modern graphics rendering (higher quality and more varied assets) on console because you cannot have a large pool of memory and still price the console at 500 USD.

OTOH - while there is still a benefit on PC it's not so obvious and it doesn't necessarily apply in all cases. If you can fit all the needed assets for an area in main memory then main memory will always be the superior way to stream those assets. However, since the pool of memory available for a game to use varies on a case by case basis, having access to fast SSD streaming is still a benefit.

That's just one example of many where X feature that is obviously of great value on console may or may not be a great value on another platform. Even design choices between different consoles can see X feature be extremely valuable for one console but less valuable on the other console. Obviously for 2 of the modern consoles we see less and less of that in play as they both rely on a common architecture with relatively minor differences in console specific customizations.

Regardless, when attempting to put forth your argument or evidence for why your opinion on something is valuable and worth consideration, civility goes a long ways towards making your point come across as well thought out and worthy of consideration.

Injecting words like "baby", "fanboy", "troublemaker", etc. just serves to make posts using such language appear rash with little thought put into them other to lash out emotionally at whatever or whomever is the target of the post.

Now, when someone then replies to that with a well thought out and civil post it'll make the previous post and by association poster appear even more irrational. IE - reponding to a "trashy" post with well thought out and reasoned arguments without resorting to emotionally driven language will just highlight how "trashy" the other post was. Of course, if the other post wasn't in fact "trashy" then at the worst you won't have made yourself look bad by using "trashy" language in retaliation to someone you feel was responding to you in a "trashy" way.

I've spent way too much time on this post, but if it can help even one more person become a better contributing member of the forum, it'll be worth it ... I hope. :p

Regards,
SB
 
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I'm not even sure I'd say that as i wouldn't expect a 3600x (6 core Zen2) to seemingly outperform the consoles by such a margin in CPU bound situations.



The features can be disabled individually, (i.e. RTAO, RT Shadows, RT Reflections) but they just can't be scaled on an individual basis. Even just a 'High' and 'Low' setting for each feature would be highly welcome.

On a separate note, does anyone know if the PC version used the consoles RT setting SSR when RT shadows are disabled? Or are we left with the crappy performance mode reflections? That SSR on consoles looks pretty good.
Yes, PC has an option to use SSR, along with a LOW/HIGH toggle.
 
The cache is inline with the number of CUs, which is inline with the larger memory bus. L2 is 5MB vs PS5s 4MB. 25% larger to accommodate 25% more CUs approximately.
It shouldn't be that off, they would have found major issues during simulation here if the CUs sat around starved for work to do.

The split memory pool is likely having a much larger effect here than everything else.
If we see the way PS5 exclusives are being built, with VRAM requirements much higher than 10GB. Welp, XSX is SOL then, because now it needs to do weird shuffling operations.
Any 3rd party that goes down this route to take full advantage of the 12-13GB on PS5 will need to backtrack on series consoles as they can't really do the same here with XSX.

I very much doubt cache optimization is the killer here as any work done on PS5 would carry over to XSX in this regard.

Keep in mind this also depends greatly on how much of that 12-13 GB being used on PS5 actually needs greater than 336 GB/s (hopefully I remembered the correct value because I'm not looking it up :p) of bandwidth. It may or may not require shuffling between the fast and slow areas of memory and instead the developer just needs to put in the effort to ensure that data that doesn't require higher bandwidth is located in the "slow" section of memory.

That will, of course, vary on a game by game basis. Something like a typical Bethesda game, for example, has a large database that needs to be kept in memory which doesn't need super fast memory access but does need to be in memory.

Regards,
SB
 
Yes I was shocked by this. But only after a long delay.

Great video though and really interesting to see the how the consoles perform here. Makes the PC's performance look much more favourable.

The 12900k seems to be pretty much doubling the consoles performance in Novograd while even the 3600x seems to be at least matching them. And that's with higher RT settings enabled on the PC version too which as shown by Alex's video do have a significant impact on CPU performance - 61fps with just RTXGI+RTAO like the consoles down to 55fps with all RT enabled. And that's assuming the RTXGI+RTAO are at the same quality levels as the consoles which I don't believe to be the case either.

So if anything the consoles seem to be punching quite a way below their weight here compared with the PC version.
Consoles also use the old LOD setting from TW 1.32 as Well as lower RT settings sadly not possible on PC.

Tom Interviewed CDPR and got a quote on how they downgraded RT for console, I will get that quote again and post here and Twitter.
 
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jesus christ

I noticed this on the PC as well, RT or not. The controller response is awful, even with Nvidia's low latency. Some of the worst I've experienced, albeit I can't say if it's just due to latency - could be the odd acceleration curve they have. It just doesn't 'feel' good to play imo.
 
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I noticed this on the PC as well, RT or not. The controller response is awful, even with Nvidia's low latency. Some of the worst I've experienced, albeit I can't say if it's just due to latency - could be the odd acceleration curve they have. It just doesn't 'feel' good to play imo.
It begs the question of what the overall controller-display latency would be if this game were streamed.
 
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Consoles also use the old LOD setting from TW 1.32 as Well as lower RT settings sadly not possible on PC.

Tom Interviewed CDPR and got a quote on how they downgraded RT for console, I will get that quote again and post here and Twitter.
:/ There are GPUs such as 2060/3060 that could get great benefits from such settings. Console versions still get a huge uplift with RTGI, lower settings or whatnot... I hate this mindset of developers who lock people in to singular settings...
 
I guess my question is why RT can't be enabled without RTGI being on. In other games devs seem to be able to bolt on individual RT features without needing a global GI solution

The other effects can definitely be turned on without GI. Maybe CDPR decided that none of the other effects were worth the fixed BVH overhead. Or there was some artistic reason.
 
I guess my question is why RT can't be enabled without RTGI being on. In other games devs seem to be able to bolt on individual RT features without needing a global GI solution
It could but the performance savings are very small.

I get an extra 5fps when I turn RT shadows, reflections and AO off.

Now 5fps is 5fps but is no where close to the performance savings you would expect but the main cost is the BVH.

This cost is fixed and the BVH will need to be built for any of the RT effects to be used so turning on say just RT shadows might still incur the same performance drop as RTGI does as you'll still be incurring the cost of the BVH generation + the cost of the RT shadows themselves.
 
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Yes I was shocked by this. But only after a long delay.

Great video though and really interesting to see the how the consoles perform here. Makes the PC's performance look much more favourable.

The 12900k seems to be pretty much doubling the consoles performance in Novograd while even the 3600x seems to be at least matching them. And that's with higher RT settings enabled on the PC version too which as shown by Alex's video do have a significant impact on CPU performance - 61fps with just RTXGI+RTAO like the consoles down to 55fps with all RT enabled. And that's assuming the RTXGI+RTAO are at the same quality levels as the consoles which I don't believe to be the case either.

So if anything the consoles seem to be punching quite a way below their weight here compared with the PC version.
isn't that engine always favored NVidia hardware? How do AMD GPUs fare in that game with or without RT?
Yes I was shocked by this. But only after a long delay.
Comparing 30fps / 60fps in the same game that difference seems about normal to me. I have seen much bigger differences in some games toggling between modes (like in God of War). And ~90ms in a 60fps performance mode could be OK. the problem in that game mainly comes from responsiveness of the controls / camera.
 
isn't that engine always favored NVidia hardware? How do AMD GPUs fare in that game with or without RT?

Comparing 30fps / 60fps in the same game that difference seems about normal to me. I have seen much bigger differences in some games toggling between modes (like in God of War). And ~90ms in a 60fps performance mode could be OK. the problem in that game mainly comes from responsiveness of the controls / camera.

The shock was more related to how high both latencies were. 90ms at 60fps is horrendous.
 
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