Digital Foundry Article Technical Discussion [2022]

[iroboto]

Again you do like all code is fully optimized on CPU side. Tons of teams can improve CPU code. This is the reason Unity is preparing to use ECS on CPU side. Insomniac devs told they are currently CPU limited for loafing but they told into the Spiderman postomortem the current CSU code was enough but they need to change to improve CPU performance for futures games. The problem is not the CPU power but the code optimization. When they will optimize it it will go faster on PS5 but it could help on the PS4 Jaguar.

I think it would be a very fast turn around time to implement all these new systems and pipelines.
Not sure if they will be there for Spider-Man 2. But perhaps Wolverine ?

 

[chris1515]

I think it would be a very fast turn around time to implement all these new systems and pipelines.
Not sure if they will be there for Spider-Man 2. But perhaps Wolverine ?

They talk about beginning improvement after Spiderman release. I suppose it was not fully implemented in Miles Morales and R&C but it will probably be there for Spiderman 2. This is the first time Insomniac will have 5 years for a game development too. They said R&C is only the tip of the iceberg of what they think they can do on PS5.

 

[Jay]

And yet we hear nothing of the fabled Direct Storage for PC.

Took me a while for me to find these as couldn't find it on here, but links should prove useful (ordered from most recent to older)
Example

because while developers have had access to the DirectStorage SDK since last summer, it is not yet fully finalized.

https://compusemble.com/insights/ho...is-technology-available-to-developers-in-2022

https://compusemble.com/insights/ho...f-windows-11s-improved-storage-stack-bypassio

https://compusemble.com/insights/ho...d-storage-stack-receives-public-documentation

Edit : updated last link

 

[Unknown Soldier]

Again you do like all code is fully optimized on CPU side. Tons of teams can improve CPU code. This is the reason Unity is preparing to use ECS on CPU side. Insomniac devs told they are currently CPU limited for loading but they told into the Spiderman postmortem the current CPU performance was enough but they need to change to improve it for futures games. The problem is not the CPU power but the code optimization. When they will optimize it it will go faster on PS5 CPU but it could help on the PS4 Jaguar. Insomniac release games very often and have less time to fully improve their architecture but 2022 is the first year since 2016 they won't release a game.

Naughty dog CPU code architecture is better for example.

Man, I loved that video. Was a great technical breakdown of what they did. Brilliant stuff. I recommend everyone watch it(I posted in the Spider-man thread).

 

[Remij]

Took me a while for me to find these as couldn't find it on here, but links should prove useful (ordered from most recent to older)
Example

https://compusemble.com/insights/ho...is-technology-available-to-developers-in-2022

https://compusemble.com/insights/ho...f-windows-11s-improved-storage-stack-bypassio

Windows 11’s New and Improved Storage Stack Receives Public Documentation

Thanks for these, however the last link doesn't work for me.

 

[Jay]

Thanks for these, however the last link doesn't work for me.

Thanks, updated, there all from the same site.

 

[Unknown Soldier]

Thanks, updated, there all from the same site.

Weird, I don't see the link at all now.

 

[pjbliverpool]

Again you do like all code is fully optimized on CPU side.

I'm not sure why you think I was suggesting this. I'm sure code can be improved on the CPU side but ultimately there's still a hard limit. Neither the SSD or the CPU hardware limitations will go away. My point was that right now, the limit on the PC side is CPU - despite having far faster CPU's, because of the outdated IO stack. A faster SSD won't help if you're bottlenecked by the CPU on PC but that's where Direct Storage should help. The CPU should be effectively unleashed under Direct Storage so that the much faster CPU's should be able to deliver loading times even smaller than the PS5. I'm not even convinced that faster SSD's are needed, but if they are, then obviously they are available in the PC space.

 

[chris1515]

I'm not sure why you think I was suggesting this. I'm sure code can be improved on the CPU side but ultimately there's still a hard limit. Neither the SSD or the CPU hardware limitations will go away. My point was that right now, the limit on the PC side is CPU - despite having far faster CPU's, because of the outdated IO stack. A faster SSD won't help if you're bottlenecked by the CPU on PC but that's where Direct Storage should help. The CPU should be effectively unleashed under Direct Storage so that the much faster CPU's should be able to deliver loading times even smaller than the PS5. I'm not even convinced that faster SSD's are needed, but if they are, then obviously they are available in the PC space.

But what I am saying this is just what we are currently seeing is probably not the real speed of PS5 SSD and we will probably able to see later faster loading after CPU power of PS5 and SSD PS5 speed are limited. But I hope seeing 1 second loading between game menu to level will be common and maybe 6 seconds loading from an activity card.

 

[PSman1700]

Isnt this an exaggeration ? The game can run at 8k/144hz on PC, with better image quality. 6 seconds against 4 seconds and a one second framedrop when opening a door hardly means this should be played on playstation

That close and thats without Direct storage.

 

[Scott_Arm]

Took a closer look at the loading spikes on pc. I can see them in my game if I capture with capframex. It's not as accurate as Digital Foundry's method, but I can see them. They last in the range of 0.2 - 0.6s for me, immediately following opening a door, and they tyically happen in the animation as you pass through when you have no control of your character. I never noticed them until I was shown they exist. Is it an issue? I guess. Does it impact the gaming experience? 0%. I didn't even know they were there until it was brought up in the video. If you're interested in the game on pc, I'd say do not let those very incredibly minor stutters stop you from picking it up.

 

[snc]

That close and thats without Direct storage.

Yeah, I dont want te waste my time to much but I read on this forum that ps5 io wasnt very special in late 2020 (but if somebody want I can bring some quations here :d)

 

[PSman1700]

Yeah, I dont want te waste my time to much but I read on this forum that ps5 io wasnt very special in late 2020 (but if somebody want I can bring some quations here :d)

Yeah lets start a quote-war, fishing things from the past and have some fun to see what we can find on eachother and opposing platform-fans. Good way/idea to mess up some topics i guess. Lets begin with storage-wars, 14gb/s vs 9gb/s, for starters.

Going to be tough to claim whos having the greatest nvme HW without some true benchmarks and all. But ye pure numbers wars perhaps of what each platforms manufacturer claims can be achieved/sustained.

Maybe create another topic for that in some subforum. ’The quote wars from the past’ perhaps.

 

[snc]

Yeah lets start a quote-war, fishing things from the past and have some fun to see what we can find on eachother and opposing platform-fans. Good way/idea to mess up some topics i guess. Lets begin with storage-wars, 14gb/s vs 9gb/s, for starters.

Going to be tough to claim whos having the greatest nvme HW without some true benchmarks and all. But ye pure numbers wars perhaps of what each platforms manufacturer claims can be achieved/sustained.

Maybe create another topic for that in some subforum. ’The quote wars from the past’ perhaps.

Chilout, for sure you was the on of many person in 2020 saying ps5 io is nothing special but as I said, will not spend much time on it

 

[PSman1700]

Chilout, for sure you was the on of many person in 2020 saying ps5 io is nothing special but as I said, will not spend much time on it

There have been people mentioning the xbox, pc werent ’special’ either. Indeed its best not to go there

 

[Deleted member 11852]

Yes, IO can't solve everything. If there is say a hypothetical fixed cost of 4 seconds to do "something" when loading a level, then it doesn't matter if your storage solution is infinitely faster than other storage solution, it'll still take 4 seconds to load a level.

There will always be option to remove the '4 seconds of something'. If you're not bound by the ability to load data, then you're bound by the ability to compute data in which case the solution is the pre-calculate anything intensive and load it, because it's obvious on PS5 you can load 20-30Gb of stored data (depending on how well it compressed) quicker than whatever might take four seconds of calculations.

This has been an approach that used for decades, effectively whenever there is a shift in I/O and storage versus realtime computation. When you can compute things faster than it would take to load then, you shift that work on the CPU. When you are load things faster than you can compute them, you pre-compute and load the data faster than you can compute it.

The reason you're not seeing super-fast load times on all PS5 games is because most games are not designed for nextgen consoles I/O stacks. They are approaching load/world generation the same way they did when running from a 5400rpm HDD in a PS4 or Xbox One. And the problem won't completely go away unless the greater majority - including PC gamers - are running SSDs and whatever version of Windows will support DirectStorage. I can't see any dev wanting to build/package two versions of the game, one optimised for fast solid state storage and one for HDDs and slower solid state storage.

 

[Globalisateur]

There will always be option to remove the '4 seconds of something'. If you're not bound by the ability to load data, then you're bound by the ability to compute data in which case the solution is the pre-calculate anything intensive and load it, because it's obvious on PS5 you can load 20-30Gb of stored data (depending on how well it compressed) quicker than whatever might take four seconds of calculations.

This has been an approach that used for decades, effectively whenever there is a shift in I/O and storage versus realtime computation. When you can compute things faster than it would take to load then, you shift that work on the CPU. When you are load things faster than you can compute them, you pre-compute and load the data faster than you can compute it.

The reason you're not seeing super-fast load times on all PS5 games is because most games are not designed for nextgen consoles I/O stacks. They are approaching load/world generation the same way they did when running from a 5400rpm HDD in a PS4 or Xbox One. And the problem won't completely go away unless the greater majority - including PC gamers - are running SSDs and whatever version of Windows will support DirectStorage. I can't see any dev wanting to build/package two versions of the game, one optimised for fast solid state storage and one for HDDs and slower solid state storage.

I can see Sony stopping doing highly customized I/O for their PS6, or probably not improving what they currently have . They'll better design a PC box in order to have a better compatibility with their multiplatform strategy. At some point they'll probably start using DirectX even on their Playstation.

 

[London Geezer]

Demon Souls? I seem to remember loading times being 1 or 2 secs.

Yes that was insane, how a co plate stage/level would just appear in an instant.. madness.

 

[iroboto]

I can see Sony stopping doing highly customized I/O for their PS6, or probably not improving what they currently have . They'll better design a PC box in order to have a better compatibility with their multiplatform strategy. At some point they'll probably start using DirectX even on their Playstation.

The latter I’m not sure. But if the intent is to move as much as possible to PC. Exotic hardware starts to go away.

 

[Rootax]

I can see Sony stopping doing highly customized I/O for their PS6, or probably not improving what they currently have . They'll better design a PC box in order to have a better compatibility with their multiplatform strategy. At some point they'll probably start using DirectX even on their Playstation.

Please, no.