Details trickle out on CELL processor...

[Brimstone]

http://ps2.gamespy.com/playstation-3/avalon/569218p1.html
I thought cell wasn't supposed to be a Power processor?

It seems that CELL is just a codename. Microsoft and Nintendo have the same acess to all the work Sony, Toshiba, and IBM have done over the last 5 years with regards to CPU architechture.

Power is a very flexible architecture. Even Pentiums are very different between Pentium M and Pentium 4, how can you assert like that?

A power core in a Cell processor is what is called PU in the patent. It may do general computation in some cases, but its main tasks in a whole processor are software-driven traffic control of Software Cell flow (and maintaining threads), partitioning of simultaneously running OS, etc. This structure is patented by Cell partners and obviously Microsoft and Nintendo can't have access to it.

I just can't see IBM cutting that type of deal.

Why would Sony go exclusive with Sony and Toshiba? They already had Nintendo from the Gamecube deal. They just wanted to expand and they got all 3 major console players.

I find it almost impossible to belive that IBM would surrender the rights to use and sell IP they have developed over the course of decades, and all the electronic engineering talent they have nurtured over the course of decades just to sign some exclusive deal with Sony and Toshiba.

Since IBM was already working with Nintendo prior to the CELL deal, I'm sure this was cleary on the minds of Sony and IBM. How can IBM make money from CELL unless they can sell it to others like Nintendo and Microsoft? That's a lot of potencial income to give up and have clearly stated the embedded market is the future. Consoles are considered embedded devices and both Nintendo and Microsoft are very wealthy companies.


IBM is hardly getting a "free ride". They plow a lot of money into R&D every year.

Just too add a guess. I don't think the core is a PowerPC core. It's something new. It's a clean sheet design but the roots go back to all the work on previous POWER architechtures, like PowerPC. When I read POWER clearly spelled out on the latest press releases, to me it if falls under the POWER umbrella and IBM can do whatever they want with it. This new Power core will end up in all 3 consoles I feel.

 

[MfA]

A time limited non competition clause would hardly be the end of the world.

 

[Brimstone]

A time limited non competition clause would hardly be the end of the world.

Thats the same thing as an exclusive contract for 5 years or a console life cycle. Obviously as you know the console platform is fixed, so a CPU can't be changed after a console has been launched.

The Rambus interface is a problem though for MS to use the technology.

The Power CPU, DMA engine and streaming processors all reside on a very fast local bus. And each processing element is connected to its neighbors in the cell by high-speed "highways." Designed by Rambus Inc. with a team from Stanford University, these highways — or parallel bundles of serial I/O links — operate at 6.4 GHz per link. One of the ISSCC papers describes the link characteristics, as well as the difficulties of developing high-speed analog transceiver circuits in SOI technology.

MS haven't cut any deals with Rambus that I know of.



Alos intresting is that Toshiba has announced support for the Rambus DDR2 interface. So they won't be using XDR exclusivley.

Toshiba Corporation has selected its DDR2 interface cells for next-generation high-volume consumer applications.

http://biz.yahoo.com/bw/041020/205314_1.html

So Toshiba CELL based products might use DDR instead of XDR?

Also an intresting side note to the "CELL saga", John Kelly seems to have gotten demoted at IBM.

SAN JOSE, Calif. — John Kelly III, senior vice president of technology within IBM Corp.'s Systems and Technology Group, has been quietly shifted to a new role as part of a major reorganization of IBM's chip operations.

Kelly had been responsible for IBM's Microelectronics Group and its Engineering & Technology services unit. Prior to assuming that role in August 2000, he was general manager of IBM's Microelectronics Group, the semiconductor arm of the company.

An IBM spokesman confirmed on Tuesday (Oct. 12) that Kelly has taken a new role within IBM, but did not elaborate on the new position. "There have been some changes," the spokesman said. "[Kelly] has taken a different role."

http://www.eet.com/semi/news/showArticle.jhtml?articleId=49901010

 

[one]

I find it almost impossible to belive that IBM would surrender the rights to use and sell IP they have developed over the course of decades, and all the electronic engineering talent they have nurtured over the course of decades just to sign some exclusive deal with Sony and Toshiba.

*cough* MIPS *cough*

Since IBM was already working with Nintendo prior to the CELL deal, I'm sure this was cleary on the minds of Sony and IBM. How can IBM make money from CELL unless they can sell it to others like Nintendo and Microsoft?

Because Sony is the market leader. Besides, Cell workstation can be IBM's own selling item. Moreover, you can sell a Cell-powered network router, in the market where companies such as Intel is now joining in. Do you think what MS or Nintendo ordered IBM to make had as vast market as Cell will potentially have? Hell no. STI has even its own lab. You know, IBM is a very bureaucratic company and there is much more inner politics than you expect in the company.

 

[McFly]

Cell will defenitly not end in Xenon and Revolution, that's just wishful thinking from MS or Nintendo fanboys. The only way cell could end in Revolution is if Nintendo goes software only and Revolution is just a Nintendo branded PS3.

Fredi

 

[Brimstone]

Cell will defenitly not end in Xenon and Revolution, that's just wishful thinking from MS or Nintendo fanboys. The only way cell could end in Revolution is if Nintendo goes software only and Revolution is just a Nintendo branded PS3.

Fredi

The way I understand it, CELL is just a code name, not a technology IP.

 

[one]

The way I understand it, CELL is just a code name, not a technology IP.

Why do you ignore those pile of patents about PE/PU/APU/.../...?

 

[PC-Engine]

*cough* MIPS *cough*

Anyone can license the MIPS ISA....

Cell will defenitly not end in Xenon and Revolution, that's just wishful thinking from MS or Nintendo fanboys. The only way cell could end in Revolution is if Nintendo goes software only and Revolution is just a Nintendo branded PS3.

Fredi

It's ok man, no need to panic, however, just because Revolution may get a CELL like cpu from IBM doesn't mean it's just a different branded PS3. Let me know when ATI is doing the GPU in PS3.

 

[Brimstone]

The way I understand it, CELL is just a code name, not a technology IP.

Why do you ignore those pile of patents about PE/PU/APU/.../...?

"CELL", "GEKKO", or whatever you want to call an indivudual chip, what matters is the technology is based off of the POWER family tree of technology. To me it seems many different levels to the STI realationship exist. They all have their own agenda's.

IBM and Sony are into the workstation market not Toshiba.

Toshiba didn't bother licensing certain chip making technology like SOI from IBM but Sony did.

While both Sony and Toshiba have licensed Rambus the next gen XDR Rambus interface, Toshiba seems keen on DDR2 ram while Sony likes XDR ram.

 

[McFly]

Cell originates from Blue Gene development four years ago and yes, Power technology is part of the Cell design, but it's only a small part of the whole thing, the biggest part of the design is completly different of what the rest of Power technology is. Cell shares much more similarities with Blue Gene then with Power. From my understanding you could even replace the Power part of Cell with something else that does the same task and it would still be Cell.

Fredi

 

[Brimstone]

Cell originates from Blue Gene development four years ago and yes, Power technology is part of the Cell design, but it's only a small part of the whole thing, the biggest part of the design is completly different of what the rest of Power technology is. Cell shares much more similarities with Blue Gene then with Power. From my understanding you could even replace the Power part of Cell with something else that does the same task and it would still be Cell.

Fredi

Thats the thing Sony needed IBM, for the project. I don't think they could demand IBM not to sell to advanced IP to Nintendo and/or Microsoft without handing over a lot of cash, and I mean a lot. The Gekko was announced to be a billion dollar deal. Besides Toshiba could care less if Nintendo or Microsoft got access to the IP. In some ways the PS3 is more of a threat to Toshiba bottom line because Sony is trying to push the Bluray format.

 

[one]

"CELL", "GEKKO", or whatever you want to call an indivudual chip, what matters is the technology is based off of the POWER family tree of technology. To me it seems many different levels to the STI realationship exist. They all have their own agenda's.

Again and again, why do you continue to ignore the patents that describe Cell structure?

IBM and Sony are into the workstation market not Toshiba.

Toshiba didn't bother licensing certain chip making technology like SOI from IBM but Sony did.

While both Sony and Toshiba have licensed Rambus the next gen XDR Rambus interface, Toshiba seems keen on DDR2 ram while Sony likes XDR ram.

Toshiba keen on DDR2 ram? Yeah, Toshiba is keen on DDR2, XDR, SRAM and on and on because Toshiba is one of major companies in memory technologies. Toshiba didn't bother licensing SOI? You're plain wrong.
http://www.newsfactor.com/story.xhtml?story_id=17085

Toshiba will lend its high-volume manufacturing capability to the project, and Sony Computer Entertainment will contribute its technology expertise, company officials said. Toshiba had sales of more than $47 billion last fiscal year.

"We will apply SOI technology to broadband processor-based LSI (large-scale integration) for such applications as a high-speed home gateway and future low-power mobile products," Toshiba's Takeshi Nakagawa said.

In a separate agreement, IBM will transfer the latest SOI technologies to Sony and Toshiba. The project will be carried out by a team made up of Sony, Toshiba and IBM scientists and engineers at IBM's Semiconductor Research and Development Center in East Fishkill, New York.

Anyway I can't fully comprehend what exactly you are trying to convey us by your last comment about Cell codename and Toshiba. Can you elaborate on it?

 

[Brimstone]

"CELL", "GEKKO", or whatever you want to call an indivudual chip, what matters is the technology is based off of the POWER family tree of technology. To me it seems many different levels to the STI realationship exist. They all have their own agenda's.

Again and again, why do you continue to ignore the patents that describe Cell structure?

IBM and Sony are into the workstation market not Toshiba.

Toshiba didn't bother licensing certain chip making technology like SOI from IBM but Sony did.

While both Sony and Toshiba have licensed Rambus the next gen XDR Rambus interface, Toshiba seems keen on DDR2 ram while Sony likes XDR ram.

Toshiba keen on DDR2 ram? Yeah, Toshiba is keen on DDR2, XDR, SRAM and on and on because Toshiba is one of major companies in memory technologies. Toshiba didn't bother licensing SOI? You're plain wrong.
http://www.newsfactor.com/story.xhtml?story_id=17085

Toshiba will lend its high-volume manufacturing capability to the project, and Sony Computer Entertainment will contribute its technology expertise, company officials said. Toshiba had sales of more than $47 billion last fiscal year.

"We will apply SOI technology to broadband processor-based LSI (large-scale integration) for such applications as a high-speed home gateway and future low-power mobile products," Toshiba's Takeshi Nakagawa said.

In a separate agreement, IBM will transfer the latest SOI technologies to Sony and Toshiba. The project will be carried out by a team made up of Sony, Toshiba and IBM scientists and engineers at IBM's Semiconductor Research and Development Center in East Fishkill, New York.

Anyway I can't fully comprehend what exactly you are trying to convey us by your last comment about Cell codename and Toshiba. Can you elaborate on it?

Sorry Low-K.


Companies like ARM and Tensilica are serious competion just to name a couple. No way this new modular "Jack of all trades" processor walks all over them. IBM needs volume at its fabs just like any semiconductor company. If IBM wasn't allowed to offer certain cutting edge IP to potential customers like Nintendo and/or Microsoft, it's a loss on royalties from IP, and loss of volume at the fab. Unless Sony guranteed volume to IBM, which would be really strange since Sony has a fab of their own, I can't see any type of exclusive clause. Also if Sony guranteed volume and couldn't sell the product because of lack of demand, it would destroy Sony finacially.

 

[one]

Thats the thing Sony needed IBM, for the project. I don't think they could demand IBM not to sell to advanced IP to Nintendo and/or Microsoft without handing over a lot of cash, and I mean a lot.

Do you think IBM didn't need Sony and Toshiba and Rambus to realize Cell?

 

[one]

Companies like ARM and Tensilica are serious competion just to name a couple. No way this new modular "Jack of all trades" processor walks all over them.

So you still do not realize one of the reasons Sony approached IBM? It's the highest performance range of a single processor, namely high frequency. There are other companies dealing with supercomputer designs, if you want just super-computer design Sony can consult them.

But what Sony want is the high performance in general processing power packed in a single die with high frequency, as Cell's main usage is realtime HDTV stream processing and so on. ARM can't reach this market so soon. Those kind of performace was simply not needed in consumer electronics area, but it's changing. Toshiba didn't have experience in this range of processor frequency. Then, it's very natural they chose IBM as the first company which reached 1Ghz back in 1998.

 

[London Geezer]

Thats the thing Sony needed IBM, for the project. I don't think they could demand IBM not to sell to advanced IP to Nintendo and/or Microsoft without handing over a lot of cash, and I mean a lot.

It's all to be seen what patents Sony can claim they invented and which ones IBM or Toshiba can. If IBM want to sell a technology based on their own patents, as long as Sony and Toshiba didn't have anything to do with that part, they'll be fine, even if that technology happens to be in the Cell project.

But to be honest, i'm sure we'll hear about law suits in the future, whatever happens.

 

[Guden Oden]

Thats the thing Sony needed IBM, for the project. I don't think they could demand IBM not to sell to advanced IP to Nintendo and/or Microsoft without handing over a lot of cash, and I mean a lot.

Uh, you don't think patents and such would be a hindrance to any such notions, should they actually exist in reality (which I would consider rather doubtful)?

Besides Toshiba could care less if Nintendo or Microsoft got access to the IP.

Your reasoning behind this statement is...?
Toshiba invests serious R&D moolah in a project, they don't care if the end result is just GIVEN AWAY to their competitors??? You make little to no sense here.

In some ways the PS3 is more of a threat to Toshiba bottom line because Sony is trying to push the Bluray format.

You're adding one and one and coming up with five as the answer.

Ask yourself this: why would Toshiba have entered into cooperation with Sony in the first place if the deal was any kind of a threat to them? Because they're fvcking STUPID perhaps?

Look, dude...

IBM owns Power, but IBM alone does not own Cell, nor does it exclusively control how IP related to Cell is handled. The patents alone tell us this much, and there's undoubtedly reams of contracts and shit which aren't public knowledge detailing this stuff as well. Alright? Had enough sillyness for one day now?

 

[Brimstone]

Thats the thing Sony needed IBM, for the project. I don't think they could demand IBM not to sell to advanced IP to Nintendo and/or Microsoft without handing over a lot of cash, and I mean a lot.

It's all to be seen what patents Sony can claim they invented and which ones IBM or Toshiba can. If IBM want to sell a technology based on their own patents, as long as Sony and Toshiba didn't have anything to do with that part, they'll be fine, even if that technology happens to be in the Cell project.

But to be honest, i'm sure we'll hear about law suits in the future, whatever happens.

IBM has been the number one patent filier for over 10 years straight. I can't see them taking any sort of risk that would put them into this type of lawsuit situation.

 

[London Geezer]

Thats the thing Sony needed IBM, for the project. I don't think they could demand IBM not to sell to advanced IP to Nintendo and/or Microsoft without handing over a lot of cash, and I mean a lot.

IBM has been the number one patent filier for over 10 years straight. I can't see them taking any sort of risk that would put them into this type of lawsuit situation.

OK... Then what's your question?
If IBM want to sell technology based on patents they have created, they can. If they infringe any of Sony and Toshiba's patents, they'll get sued. It's very normal, huge corporations like those always have numerous law suits running at any one time for whatever reasons...

 

[PC-Engine]

SONY fanbois wetting their panties over the prospect that the infamous 4GHz 1TFLOPS 32MB eDRAM sub 300mm^2 CELL cpu technology going into competing consoles should just relax...

ATI's gpu going into the competing consoles will rip PS3 a new one regardless...