Console Maker's OS

[ERP]

As long as you know you have 6 cores it's probably not an issue. The bigger issue would be cache pollution making 2 of the cores have unpredictable performance.
But that would be true of "any" always active functionality.
And if it is Win8 it brings up the question of the driver model and what impact that has.
If it doesn't have to run pre compiled windows binaries, then it could be Win8 in the same way 360 is NT, i.e. just based on the kernel.

 

[Lucid_Dreamer]

If Durango uses Windows 8, wouldn't it be subject to all Windows exploits? Would that, also, mean updates would be going on all the time? That would be incredibly annoying.

 

[upnorthsox]

Yep, anti-virus will be available via xbla. Gold members only though................

 

[Scott_Arm]

As long as you know you have 6 cores it's probably not an issue. The bigger issue would be cache pollution making 2 of the cores have unpredictable performance.
But that would be true of "any" always active functionality.
And if it is Win8 it brings up the question of the driver model and what impact that has.
If it doesn't have to run pre compiled windows binaries, then it could be Win8 in the same way 360 is NT, i.e. just based on the kernel.

Would it be possible that the 2 reserved cores + 3GB of RAM run Windows 8, but the remaining resources run the game independently from the OS? Could there be a launcher that basically tells the "gaming" resources to execute, but once it starts it's on its own? Not sure how audio and graphics resources could be shared under that model. I guess you also have the problem of getting your game to be aware of services (chat, web browser, store etc) that are provided by the OS.

 

[Arwin]

If Durango uses Windows 8, wouldn't it be subject to all Windows exploits? Would that, also, mean updates would be going on all the time? That would be incredibly annoying.

This is a big reason why I think it will only have the Windows RT layer.

 

[Scott_Arm]

This is a big reason why I think it will only have the Windows RT layer.

Yeah, incredibly unlikely it would be full OS with desktop etc. Much more likely RT to match Windows 8 phones and Surface RT.

 

[Silent_Buddha]

If Durango uses Windows 8, wouldn't it be subject to all Windows exploits? Would that, also, mean updates would be going on all the time? That would be incredibly annoying.

Potentially, but unlike desktop Win8, you'd be looking at a walled garden approach. All applications that are installed will have to pass MS approval. That doesn't guarantee nothing gets through (look at iOS where some things occasionally get through), but in this case, by being Windows it doesn't increase or decrease the risk. You could say the same thing whether it was based on a Windows, Linux, Unix, BSD, or whatever kernel.

They key point is that everything will have to pass through MS. Unless the console gets hacked, but then that's the hacker's problem, not Microsoft's.

Regards,
SB

 

[dagamer]

If Durango uses Windows 8, wouldn't it be subject to all Windows exploits? Would that, also, mean updates would be going on all the time? That would be incredibly annoying.

Possibly, though I don't think Windows has been subject to typical drive-by malware for quite some time. These days, I feel like social engineering is all the rage since it only depends on ill-informed computer users as an attack vector, and that doesn't require any real weakness in a computer system to create chaos.

Windows Phone 8 runs the same kernel as Windows RT and Windows 8 with much lower RAM requirements (with some devices dipping into the 512MB range), so when rumors state the next Xbox has 3 GB of RAM for the OS, I think it's pretty unlikely that the actual OS is using that entire amount.

At the very least, I hope that opening up an app doesn't mean quitting a game anymore.

 

[Deleted member 86764]

Something that occurred to me in a different thread; it seems strange to me the amount of system reservations going on with the PS4 that are predominantly being unused (or at least very little) at the moment. We know that the system reserves 2 Jaguars for the OS and 3.5GB of the memory, also it probably reserves some GPU time. What really is the point of this? I know it can run an app and a game concurrently, but I fail to see the reasoning. I only ever either watch TV on an app, or play a game. I do not need to have both at the same time. Not once have I seen a good use for this.

2/8 CPUs for system = 25%
3.5GB for system = ~40%
As well as maybe 5ish% of the GPU?

Seems like an awful lot for just being able to go back to the main OS when you hit the PS button, which actually takes far longer than it should to join parties, see friends online, etc. I’d prefer to have a 360 type of menu that appears in the centre of the screen that gives me all of the items I need during gameplay, it’d be quicker and simpler, taking far less ‘clicks’/ button presses.

Are those two reserved CPUs just sitting idle until you press the PS button? I got the impression from the DF article a while back that might be the case (fan increases volume when in the menu with a game running). Also, how much of that 3.5GB is unused at the moment?

I understand they’re trying to future-proof the machine, it just seems like a massive waste right now. Surely, if they allow an app or a game to use the full system, then both apps and games would actually be better, only you won’t be able to have several open at the same time (which I personally don’t see the point of). I have a smartphone that allows me to check the web, I have only opened it in the PS4 out of curiosity - it was actually fairly awful and I can’t understand why the touchpad isn’t used for the pointer.

I think my PS4 is great, it just doesn’t make the best use of the resource at the moment. To me anyway.

 

[Inuhanyou]

Future proofing. You can say its a waste right now, but if they never did it, they would never have the opportunity to take it back. When they eventually give a portion of that allocation back, it'll be better when they are ready instead of doing things without thinking like PS3 when people complained about lacking features in comparison to 360.

What the PS4 lacks right now is only due to them not having the features ready, not due to it being impossible to implement them.

That's the answer to your question.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

I think the console companies have lost the plot myself. Wii U reserves 1GB, 50% of RAM, for OS stuff that does nothing. XB1 reserves 3 GBs, 37.5%, for an OS that can multitask some features that mostly I expect people don't care to use. PS4 reserves 3.5 GBs, 44%, for an OS that does pretty much nothing. If any of them ever implement anything useful with that reservation in future, I'll eat my words, but until then, I claim they're clueless numpties with little ability to understand their consumers and plan accordingly.

 

[Lefungus]

Same feeling here. I think it's insane that 2 cpu and 3.5GB are reserved for *unknown* purposes.
It would feel more adequate to reserve 1 cpu, and something like 2GB, and reduce this memory chunk during the console life.
What are they doing with 3.5GB currently ? It's just a glorified task launcher with a bit of messaging. One possibility may be the share button and the instant video encoding. But then, didn't they integrate a custom encoding chip specifically for this ? Isn't there a supplementary ARM core on PS4 to at least handle downloads ?

 

[liolio]

I agree that is lot of money "wasted" if you multiply by the number of sold units that should sell throughout those systems lifes.

 

[Globalisateur]

Same feeling here. I think it's insane that 2 cpu and 3.5GB are reserved for *unknown* purposes.
It would feel more adequate to reserve 1 cpu, and something like 2GB, and reduce this memory chunk during the console life.
What are they doing with 3.5GB currently ? It's just a glorified task launcher with a bit of messaging. One possibility may be the share button and the instant video encoding. But then, didn't they integrate a custom encoding chip specifically for this ? Isn't there a supplementary ARM core on PS4 to at least handle downloads ?

Those 2-3GB are probably reserved for the devkit debugging tools, 12GB PS4 devkits don't exist yet.

I assume when they'll release 12GB PS4 devkits, games could have at least 7GB of usable ram. Maybe even 7.5GB.

 

[London Geezer]

Those 2-3GB are probably reserved for the devkit debugging tools, 12GB PS4 devkits don't exist yet.

I assume when they'll release 12GB PS4 devkits, games could have at least 7GB of usable ram. Maybe even 7.5GB.

Not sure I follow......

 

[Shifty Geezer]

Not sure I follow......

Traditionally, SDKs have had more RAM (twice as much) as the console for debug+development purposes. At the moment there are only 8GB devkits, the same as the final hardware, meaning no room for development functions. When 12 GBs becomes viable for the PS4 devkit, debug functions could be moved into the extra RAM, leaving more of the console RAM available for the actual game. That's Globalisateur's reasonable theory, anyhow.

 

[Globalisateur]

Not sure I follow......

Yes I know. I have been saying this since months ago, but apparently, like you, nobody ever understood my theory.

But it's a good and logical reasoning, really.

You need the software debugging tools to develop a game and as the PS4 devkits have only 8GB of ram, like maybe 3GB are reserved for the debugging tools during development (maybe 0.5 reserved for the OS) so developers can't even test their games and allocate more than 4.5GB during development (some articles wrote that 5GB are available but under strange conditions which aren't strange anymore if my theory is correct).

You can't allocate 7GB for a game without having tested and debugged the behaviour of your game because you need the debugging software to correctly test your 7GB game. But it's impossible on a 8GB devkit because maybe up to 3.5GB are taken by OS + debugging software.

 

[betan]

Not sure I follow......

Claim: Since there are no 12GB devkits, current 8GB devkits need some mem space for debugging and other dev tools, cutting from game's share, hence the 5.5GB available.

While not unreasonable, it's unlikely the reason behind 3.5GB reserve.
In fact it's probably the other way, since there is 3.5GB reserve for apps and OS stuff, they don't need a devkit with more memory (yet).

 

[Shifty Geezer]

Yes I know. I have been saying this since months ago, but apparently, like you, nobody ever understood my theory.

Your theory is understandable, but hardly definitive. Given Sony's openness with their hardware and implementation, and they public spelling out devs wanting lots of unified RAM, and gamer talk about the reservation, I would expect Sony to have said, "at the moment, because we're using cutting edge memory, we have to reserve a substantial amount of RAM from the console to give our developers the best platform to work with. When higher memory capacities become available, we can upgrade the development kits and free up much of this reserved RAM from the PS4. So you'll get great looking games at launch, and then, as devs grow to fit the system and require more RAM, we'll be able to provide that."

That's a clear, honest message that does Sony no harm. Whereas, "it's reserved for future stuff we can't really think of," tells us it's sitting idle. I suppose there's a chance that the RAM is reserved for development purposes but Sony don't want to promise that it'll be returned to devs in case they find a different use for the RAM later (not that there will be one, because several GBs of RAM is only good for massive content like digital editing...).

 

[Rurouni]

Claim: Since there are no 12GB devkits, current 8GB devkits need some mem space for debugging and other dev tools, cutting from game's share, hence the 5.5GB available.

While not unreasonable, it's unlikely the reason behind 3.5GB reserve.
In fact it's probably the other way, since there is 3.5GB reserve for apps and OS stuff, they don't need a devkit with more memory (yet).

It would definitely be hard for Sony to produce more than 8GB of RAM for PS4 since they're already on the limit. Maybe next year when bigger capacity starts to emerge.