Console Maker's OS

[Prophecy2k]

Yes of course, we're going to get around to forumers saying PS4 doesnt use any core for it's OS and Durango uses two, sooner or later. Of course! Who could have seen that coming.

Some other facts:

Every Durango will come with Kinect and HDD since those are super expensive and we want Durango to be as weak as possible.

The RAM OS in Durango cant ever be lowered.

And so forth and so on.



Indeed, one core will have to be available to the OS always, making it basically useless for a game. Similar to the PS3's 2nd OS SPU today IIRC.

That, and you guys are craving this and that, when you dont even know if it's good. What if Durango's OS functions are good enough they cause many more people to buy a Durango than an Orbis. And all your hoping turned out to be for a bad thing?

MS reserved a lot for OS apparently for a reason. When consumers look at the total package, there will be a lot of factors go into what box sells. What MS is cooking up very well might be pretty compelling.

What if Sony was shortsighted not reserving more for OS, and consumers dont care Orbis games look 10% better (if they do), they flock to 720's special OS features, whatever they may be, and Kinect 2 in every box. I for one am at least interested.

We can start speculation now that PS4 has a special core just for the OS of course, just like we want it to have special DDr3 just for the OS, because we want to make sure theres never any chance it's less powerful than 720 in any way, shape, or possible fashion at all. Because the world might end if so.

You're getting far too emotional over this.

In the end there are only two positions of merit:

1) Take the rumours as rumours and question everything, disbelieving all until the final boxes are announced and spec revealed.
2) Take the most consistent rumours at face value, not adding or taing away from them any of your own biased conjecture, however take all with a healthy pinch of salt.

And then there's your position which seems to consist of:

3) Take the most prevalent rumours, pick a choose the bits that make your console of choice sound better than the other guy, and fill i the blanks with baseless conjecture and speculation hyping up things completely unknown (like secret sauce) as some uber performance multplying enhancement that only MS wit their deep pockets and smartest people in the world can invent.

2) is my position... If Eurogamer reveals specs consistent with the most prevalent rumours, and then discloses additional info. like the fact that PS4 has dedicated CPU compute units, and doesn't dedicate an entire CPU core to its OS (as if the OS is as thin as XMB it wouldn't need to) then I would be inclined to hold that new infrmation up with the same light as the previously known stuff. I'm not saying i believe anything or know concretely what it would entail specifically, but i regard it all the same. Claiming that Orbis would need to dedicate an entire Jaguar core to its OS, and that that core would be useless otherwise is ignorant, as Xenon in the 360 ran game code and the OS simultaneously and didn't break a sweat. Use your head rangers... plus all your other stuff in your post about which one might sell better because of a bloated OS is useless noise and beside the point actually being discussed. You may want to settle down mate.

 

[Rangers]

You're getting far too emotional over this.

In the end there are only two positions of merit:

1) Take the rumours as rumours and question everything, disbelieving all until the final boxes are announced and spec revealed.
2) Take the most consistent rumours at face value, not adding or taing away from them any of your own biased conjecture, however take all with a healthy pinch of salt.

And then there's your position which seems to consist of:

3) Take the most prevalent rumours, pick a choose the bits that make your console of choice sound better than the other guy, and fill i the blanks with baseless conjecture and speculation hyping up things completely unknown (like secret sauce) as some uber performance multplying enhancement that only MS wit their deep pockets and smartest people in the world can invent.

2) is my position... If Eurogamer reveals specs consistent with the most prevalent rumours, and then discloses additional info. like the fact that PS4 has dedicated CPU compute units, and doesn't dedicate an entire CPU core to its OS (as if the OS is as thin as XMB it wouldn't need to) then I would be inclined to hold that new infrmation up with the same light as the previously known stuff. I'm not saying i believe anything or know concretely what it would entail specifically, but i regard it all the same. Claiming that Orbis would need to dedicate an entire Jaguar core to its OS, and that that core would be useless otherwise is ignorant, as Xenon in the 360 ran game code and the OS simultaneously and didn't break a sweat. Use your head rangers... plus all your other stuff in your post about which one might sell better because of a bloated OS is useless noise and beside the pint actually being discussed. You may want to settle down mate.

so again, durango needs two cores for os, orbis magically needs zero, convenient.

when are you guys going to start claiming there is a stash of DDR3 so Orbis needs no OS RAM reserves? I have already seen many on neogaf wishing for that one...and next we will start up that there is a separate ARM core that runs the OS in Orbis too. These are actual posts in this thread recently. It's just kind of annoying, all these posts that run one direction and have one obvious overriding motive behind them.

And using the term "bloated OS" just betrays your bias. I might say Sony is behind the times at a videogame system doing things more than play games, just like they are behind the times with their network, and they might get burned if they arent careful.

I dont know what MS has planned for Durango OS but it certainly might be cool. I for one will give it a chance. Yes, kill me now everybody, I'm obviously a MS shill for saying that.

And there's still no way you can have any kind of on demand functionality without (at least one) core being available at will, meaning it cant do any critical game functions. Period. Make up a ARM core if you must, and I see you guys are well on your way, but it has to be there.

Eurogamer specificall says that Orbis doesn't reserve any of its CPU cores for the OS. All 8 are available to the game app.

Umm, it actually doesnt say that at all. Are you just making things up? The topic isn't really addressed either way by Eurogamer, unless I'm missing something, feel free to point it out if so.

In fact it even refers to the Durango core reserves as "potentially" two. So if anything we can say Durango may use less than two by your logic.

 

[Prophecy2k]

so again, durango needs two cores for os, orbis magically needs zero, convenient.

when are you guys going to start claiming there is a stash of DDR3 so Orbis needs no OS RAM reserves? I have already seen many on neogaf wishing for that one...and next we will start up that there is a separate ARM core that runs the OS in Orbis too. These are actual posts in this thread recently. It's just kind of annoying, all these posts that run one direction and have one obvious overriding motive behind them.

And using the term "bloated OS" just betrays your bias. I might say Sony is behind the times at a videogame system doing things more than play games, just like they are behind the times with their network, and they might get burned if they arent careful.

I dont know what MS has planned for Durango OS but it certainly might be cool. I for one will give it a chance. Yes, kill me now everybody, I'm obviously a MS shill for saying that.

And there's still no way you can have any kind of on demand functionality without (at least one) core being available at will, meaning it cant do any critical game functions. Period. Make up a ARM core if you must, and I see you guys are well on your way, but it has to be there.

Umm, it actually doesnt say that at all. Are you just making things up? The topic isn't really addressed either way by Eurogamer, unless I'm missing something, feel free to point it out if so.

In fact it even refers to the Durango core reserves as "potentially" two. So if anything we can say Durango may use less than two by your logic.

No one says Orbis won't need any CPU resource to drive its OS. Both I and 3delettante have indicated that an ENTIRE jaguar core does not need to be reserved (i.e. isolated entirely from the game application), as it would be a waste of resources provided Sony is going with a smaller and lighter OS. The latter assupton is reasonable as a game console OS has never historically had more than a 128MB ram footprint, and so the mere fact that MS is reserving 3GB for durango means they have alot more in mind that what is required for a simple and standard games console operating system. Rumours have said Durango will use a version of Win 8, and the 3GB is not only for the OS but kinect and applications that will run simultaneously to the game app. This isn't fanboy conjecture but statements clearly taken from the most prevalent rumours rumoured.

You're free to think that whatever MS is planning for those reserved resources will be cool. My position is that it is for MS to make that case, not for me to believe it in blind hope that they have some crazy awesome game-changing, super innovative, revolutionary app in mind. Reality will be the proof when it reveals itself. The FACTS however are that whatever it is, those resources will NOT be available to the game application, and I don't know about you Rangers, but I buy consoles for only really one reason... you know... to play games.

All the rest of your nonesense about DDR3 in orbis, hasn't even been mentioned here by me or anyone else by my reckoning. So projecting your ire over things spouted by uninformed folks on NeoGaf has no place in this thread or forum.

DF said about Durango:

There'll be a relatively high CPU overhead too, with potentially two cores reserved for the customisable apps Microsoft wants to run in parallel with gameplay. Orbis has no such ambitions and may power past the new Xbox simply because it focuses its resources on out-and-out games power.

So unless you are doing some serious mental gymnastics, have poor reading comprehension or are just being plain obtuse, the above suggests that MS will potentially (agreed) be reserving (key word), two entire Jag cores for OS/kinect/apps, whereas Orbis focuses its CPU resources on games power. Implying the PS4 OS doesn't reserve an entire core. Again its reasonable and logical, as Sony isn't trying to push Win8, nor do they develop full PC OS for a living. My personal position is that a full PC OS is superfluous for a console, and one that uses 2 entire x86 cores and 3GB of RAM (that's almost the equivalent of an entire netbook system on its own) is bloated for a console. I stand by that opinion, not as bias, but as common sense. If it was Sony doing it it wouldn't be any less bloated.

My suggestion previously about an ARM core for sercurity and OS was simply a suggestion, nothing else. Of course it doesn't appear any of the rumours, as I never claimed it did. I said "perhaps" and "possibly", it was speculation as an alternative to free up the entire suite of Jag cores for game code. I would have specuated the same for Durango (as its a thought based on the AMD "Trustzone" technology seen in official AMD PR material) but the rumour left no room for such speculation as they have already clearly stated what Durango will be doing for its OS. I aplogise if that suggestion offended your sensibilties Rangers. Next time I shall limit my speculation only to things that favour Durango... will that make you more happy?

 

[Rangers]

So you said Eurogamer specifically said something, and they didn't.

 

[Hecatoncheires]

My suggestion previously about an ARM core for sercurity and OS was simply a suggestion, nothing else.

Nevertheless I agree completely on that point. Given the fact the VitaOS runs on ARM, it would be a complete no-brainer for Sony to use ARM for the PS4 OS as well. Orbis would have more power for games and less wattage for OS tasks.

 

[Prophecy2k]

Nevertheless I agree completely on that point. Given the fact the VitaOS runs on ARM, it would be a complete no-brainer for Sony to use ARM for the PS4 OS as well. Orbis would have more power for games and less wattage for OS tasks.

Indeed, however it also adds cost through the components and board complexity. It would also be another chip fighting with the CPU and GPU for system bandwidth.

Eitherway no rumour has made mention so I'm careful to state that it is my idea of what could be rather than what is (before someone from Gaf picks it up as rumour and runs with it, upsetting Rangers).

 

[Gubbi]

.... it would be a complete no-brainer for Sony to use ARM for the PS4 OS as well.

Or someone don't understand how software stacks work.

Cheers

 

[Hecatoncheires]

Indeed, however it also adds cost through the components and board complexity. It would also be another chip fighting with the CPU and GPU for system bandwidth.

If you go with a UMA pool the OS will be fighting for system bandwith anyway. With an ARM processor integrated in the SoC and dedicated to OS tasks you will at least save CPU processing power for your games.

Even the upcoming 2013 AMD consumer APUs will be using an integrated Cortex A5 for the Trustzone feature. Hence it will be no problem for AMD to integrate it into the Orbis SoC.

 

[mboeller]

MS wanted a trojan horse to take over the living room and strengthen the Windows ecosystem and MS brand against the likes of Google and Apple, and Sony wanted more or less a traditional console.

OT, but I'm curious:

couldn't such a strategy backfire?

With a capable media box in the house who needs a laptop or PC? Most people seem to be using their PC only for surfing, email, video etc... so in the end it could mean, one media box sold, one PC/Laptop not, or?

edit:
http://www.pocket-lint.com/news/49454/xbox-720-called-xbox-x-surface

so a media box + tablet instead of a laptop or PC

 

[Shifty Geezer]

What's not clear to me about the design is how those data transfers are queued/if they are queued and what mechanisms exist to synchronize access to the data with the completion of the transfer.

Considering there are reportedly four DMEs, there must be some considerable management of requests to optimise RAM access.

 

[Averagejoe]

Rumours actually don't say that Orbis reserves one whole Jaguar core for its OS.

The assumption being either that the OS will use whatever CPU cycles are available when the game app is running, or that they'll possibly have some little ARM core on die for the OS.

Eurogamer specificall says that Orbis doesn't reserve any of its CPU cores for the OS. All 8 are available to the game app.

Is that a smart design.?

Using an ARM CPU for OS on the background while the CPU is completely use for gaming.?

Could this be a possibility.?

 

[Averagejoe]

Yes of course, we're going to get around to forumers saying PS4 doesnt use any core for it's OS and Durango uses two, sooner or later. Of course! Who could have seen that coming.

Some other facts:

Every Durango will come with Kinect and HDD since those are super expensive and we want Durango to be as weak as possible.

The RAM OS in Durango cant ever be lowered.

And so forth and so on.



Indeed, one core will have to be available to the OS always, making it basically useless for a game. Similar to the PS3's 2nd OS SPU today IIRC.

That, and you guys are craving this and that, when you dont even know if it's good. What if Durango's OS functions are good enough they cause many more people to buy a Durango than an Orbis. And all your hoping turned out to be for a bad thing?

MS reserved a lot for OS apparently for a reason. When consumers look at the total package, there will be a lot of factors go into what box sells. What MS is cooking up very well might be pretty compelling.

What if Sony was shortsighted not reserving more for OS, and consumers dont care Orbis games look 10% better (if they do), they flock to 720's special OS features, whatever they may be, and Kinect 2 in every box. I for one am at least interested.

We can start speculation now that PS4 has a special core just for the OS of course, just like we want it to have special DDr3 just for the OS, because we want to make sure theres never any chance it's less powerful than 720 in any way, shape, or possible fashion at all. Because the world might end if so.

Come on dude no one is saying that,in fact one of the leak documents of MS talk about an ARM CPU,who knows if maybe they have one inside.

As for sales no ones knows,but let me tell you this the past 2 generation had been won by consoles that were not the most powerful,power means nothing when it comes to sales.

 

[bkilian]

It's not a hard requirement that an OS has statically dedicated core for its own use. Desktop systems don't.
edit: Although reserving resources like that can simplify a lot of things.

Doesn't matter if they use one or two or no cores, they'll still pollute the cache on whichever module they're using and cause uncertainty for the game. Never a fun thing.

 

[Scott_Arm]

Doesn't matter if they use one or two or no cores, they'll still pollute the cache on whichever module they're using and cause uncertainty for the game. Never a fun thing.

Does Jaguar share an L2 cache between 4 cores? I found a block diagram and that's what it looked like. Seems like plans for a heavyweight OS could be problematic, to say the least.

 

[bkilian]

Heck, it caused problems for 360, and that has a very lightweight OS. But yes, jaguar has one cache per 4 core module.

 

[Scott_Arm]

Heck, it caused problems for 360, and that has a very lightweight OS. But yes, jaguar has one cache per 4 core module.

I'll leave it to the experts to make heads or tails of the impact on game performance, if the OS turns out to be something app heavy, always on, etc.

 

[dumbo11]

The possibilities are immense for what MS could put that much reserved memory to use for.

And considering how cheap RAM is currently, why not use it to enhance the user experience beyond just games?

Yep. It's also worth remembering that in the media-center battle MS will be competing against the googleTV/appleTV etc. In that fight, google can release the 'google TV 2', apple can release the 'apple TV 2', MS won't really be able to do that. They're stuck with the spec they launch with - if they think they might need 3GB to compete against the "appleTV 3", they need to reserve 3GB now...

It's going to be fun to see what happens - I think the set-top-box component of the 720 is something that might be rather compelling.

 

[3dilettante]

Doesn't matter if they use one or two or no cores, they'll still pollute the cache on whichever module they're using and cause uncertainty for the game. Never a fun thing.

There's no rumor of Durango reserving a whole module, so scenarios exist where a game may face this uncertainty for at least 1/3 of its threads.
We also lack context on how the reserved cores are distributed which can mean anything from two cores on one module or one on each, and we don't have details on thread assignment policies which can change the picture as well.

What interests me is that not much talk of CPU redundancy has come up for either platform, or this is being rolled into the reserved CPU portion and is not being mentioned for Orbis.

 

[patsu]

Well... I'd think that the extra memory can be used to keep a "panoramic model" of the living room when they are using LiveWall.

I don't see people using productivity software on the living room TV. MS will want to market a new form of entertainment, perhaps as an extension of Kinect.

 

[Gitaroo]

weird to see how Sony is ignoring those, maybe they don't want multi tasking? Just run 1 app at a time. Rumor says 360 will have a hdmi in port, so it might have some kind of dvr support. Sony released a DVR box add on for ps3 already. Maybe they are taking that route again to keep the PS4 price as low as possible.