BLU-RAY WIN!

[therealskywolf]

The EETimes article went up a couple hours ago.

http://www.eetimes.com/showArticle.jhtml?articleID=163100700

HD DVD-ROM going to 45-Gbyte capacity

Yoshiko Hara
EE Times
(05/10/2005 3:12 PM EDT)

TOKYO — Toshiba Corp. has developed a triple-layer HD DVD-ROM (read-only) disc with a 45-Gbyte data capacity, making it more competitive with the 50-Gbyte capacity achievable by the Blu-ray Disc format.

Demonstrated Tuesday at the HD DVD workshop at Media Tech 2005 in Las Vegas, the high-capacity DVD-ROM disc answers critics who contended the 30 Gbyte capacity of existing HD DVD-ROM discs puts its at a major disadvantage compared to the Blu-ray format.

Much of the recent talk surrounding both the HD DVD and Blu-ray formats has centered around a unified disc standard. But for the moment both formats remain competitors, leaving OEMs with more decisions in designing next-generation audio/video products.

The HD DVD camp may have scored a minor victory in the battle, as Warner Home Video and Universal Studios immediately endorsed the triple disc format.

Toshiba also announced a new hybrid format, double sided, dual layer HD DVD ROM disc with 30 Gbytes on one side and 8.5 Gbytes on the other side. Warner said that 77 percent of consumers surveyed are interested in purchasing the hybrid HD DVD products.

With the introduction of new discs, the HD DVD-ROM will be available as a 15-Gbyte single layer, single sided disc; 30-Gbyte dual layer, single sided disc; the 45-Gbyte triple layer disc; and the 30-Gbyte/8.5-Gbyte hybrid disc.

Toshiba emphasized that the triple layered disc does not sacrifice the high productivity of the HD DVD-ROM format. Memory-Tech Corp., a major disc replicator in Japan that supports the HD DVD format, has confirmed the new 45GB disc can be produced on their existing manufacturing lines for HD DVD discs with only minimal additional investment and production cost per disc.

Shiroharu Kawasaki, president and chief executive of Memory-Tech, said, "We have already started verification for volume production of triple layer discs, and we are confident of early verification as they are based on the 0.6-mm disc structure and established production technologies."

The triple layer disc is produced by bonding two 0.6-mm platters, the same as DVD disc production. The first recording layer of both platters is formed by injection, a widely used technique to produce ROM discs. For the dual layer platter, ultraviolet sensitive resin is coated on the first layer.

In the DVD family discs, so-called DVD-14 and DVD-18 have dual-layers on one side, and are used in limited applications, according to a Toshiba spokeswoman.

I guess that Toshiba isnt simply going to bend to sony....at lest thats the conclusion i take from that article, they now have something that almost defeats the advantages of BR.

 

[Joe DeFuria]

The EETimes article went up a couple hours ago.

http://www.eetimes.com/showArticle.jhtml?articleID=163100700

....Warner said that 77 percent of consumers surveyed are interested in purchasing the hybrid HD DVD products.

Damn those "cheapskates" and "bad parents..."

 

[London Geezer]

I'd love to see a survey of "how cares about HD anyway" kind of proportions, in the US and in the UK.

In the UK, 98% would answer "AITCH WHAT?!"

 

[jvd]

what exactly is "how cares "


Anyway now your backtracking because you know i'm right . Its a good idea no matter what the tech be it bluray or hd-dvd

 

[Npl]

Toshiba also announced a new hybrid format, double sided, dual layer HD DVD ROM disc with 30 Gbytes on one side and 8.5 Gbytes on the other side. Warner said that 77 percent of consumers surveyed are interested in purchasing the hybrid HD DVD products.

Wooohoo. What speaks against making a Hybrid-BR, one Side BR, the other DVD ?

 

[DemoCoder]

I'm only saying that I would prefer hybrid discs until such time that my entire household is HD capable, and I believe many people would feel the same way. (In other words, I do see legitimate demand for them.)

So if you forsee that eventually, your whole household will have HD capable players, why hamstring the format with transitional hybrid when within just a few short years, everyone will be pretty much converted over?

The prices on these players are going to drop *rapidly*. I predict in less than 2 years, sub-$100 players will be available. It just doesn't make sense to saddle the entire industry with a half-ass format to close a 1-2 year gap in HD player adoption.

The fact of the matter is, HDDVD will be a success no matter what, and furthermore, if you want to drive people to purchase the players, what better way than to ship discs which ONLY play on HD players.

This format has to last a decade, and to shoehorn in this hybrid format to cover a narrow availability gap is extremely shortsighted of the longterm.

The question is, why can't you buy an HDDVD and simply WAIT until you get more players for the rest of the house? Why is it neccessary that a next-gen High-definition format must instantaenously work in everyroom in your house, and in your car, on old TVs and players? Do you really think that you're going to have that many HDDVDs purchased in the year or two it takes you to buy a second HD player?

This whole demand seems like one big red herring.

 

[DemoCoder]

The EETimes article went up a couple hours ago.

http://www.eetimes.com/showArticle.jhtml?articleID=163100700

....Warner said that 77 percent of consumers surveyed are interested in purchasing the hybrid HD DVD products.

Yes, and many consumers are also interested in buying gas-guzzling SUVs and other wasteful and inefficient products. A majority of consumers like DUBBED foreign movies and NON-letterboxed movies too. It pisses me off everytime I go to see an import movie in the theater "targeted" for the average consumer, or when I buy DVDs, and I end up with non-letter boxed versions (on widescreen, when the ratio is beyond 16:9) because the average consumer can't stand the blackbars.

Consumers are short sighted. In 5 years, those same consumers might be asking why they have to put up with all these old dual sided disks with DVD tracks.

But you know, when a billion flies eat shit, it can't be that bad?

 

[Ty]

They wouldn't at 15$ but they would at a higher price point like 20-25$ and it will sell and they will do it for that reason because it will sell and they will get ap rice preimum on the discs .

Ok so studios are going to put out 3 versions of movies? One Full Frame DVD, One Widescreen DVD, and One Hybrid? Seems like a lot to fight shelf space for.

I can buy the argument about studios putting out Hybrid discs selling at a premium (though this will stiffle adoption of players when movies costs ~50% - 90% more when using your numbers) because it gets them more money now as opposed to hoping consumers will buy 2 versions, one now and one later on.

And of course later on studios could always release a strictly BR or HD-DVD version of the movie with more goodies. So maybe.

 

[jvd]

Ok so studios are going to put out 3 versions of movies? One Full Frame DVD, One Widescreen DVD, and One Hybrid? Seems like a lot to fight shelf space for.

Well studios already put out two versions of the movies . Many movies come in wide screen or standard format to beging with . Not to mention all the special super edition movies . Evil dead alone has 5 skus still being sold at best buy . So its not a far leap .

Don't forget that they don't have to make a hd version of the movie . They can just make a hd /sd version and then the standard version .

I can buy the argument about studios putting out Hybrid discs selling at a premium (though this will stiffle adoption of players when movies costs ~50% - 90% more when using your numbers) because it gets them more money now as opposed to hoping consumers will buy 2 versions, one now and one later on.

Your forgeting that when dvd came out many of the dvds were 25$ plus for the movies . So people are willing to pay more for new tech .

And of course later on studios could always release a strictly BR or HD-DVD version of the movie with more goodies. So maybe

well thats the point dvds have lasted over 10 years and will have another 3-4 years of the highest selling media format for movies . So why would the movie studios care if they have to sell a hybrid for the first 3 years . IT can only help adoption as people can also use the discs on the old players .

 

[one]

F*ck double-sided disc - it has no pretty label.

 

[wco81]

F*ck double-sided disc - it has no pretty label.

You really don't see too many DVD-18 releases. Seems like the studios just use two DVD-9 disks instead when they have that much content for a single release.

Would they bother with hybrid discs if the cost of a DVD-9 disc and a DL HD-DVD disc is the same?

And beyond the cost, would they just give away the HD-DVD along with the DVD-9 release just to help HD-DVD win the format wars? What incentive do the studios, other than Warners, have for helping Toshiba out like that?

 

[Ty]

Well studios already put out two versions of the movies . Many movies come in wide screen or standard format to beging with . Not to mention all the special super edition movies . Evil dead alone has 5 skus still being sold at best buy . So its not a far leap .

I had to check since you mentioned Evil Dead (what a funny movie!) Only 2 SKUs at Bestbuy.com, one for the first and one for Evil Dead 2. Most movies have 2 SKUs at most. Imagine increasing the shelf space for movies by 50%! This assumes of course that every movie would come out in 3 versions - which is unlikely. But the less movies that come out, the less the adoption rate is going to be.

Don't forget that they don't have to make a hd version of the movie . They can just make a hd /sd version and then the standard version .

I presume "SD" = Widescreen and "standard version" = full frame

Yep, that's certainly true, they could combine the Widescreen with the HD version, but then to buy the Widescreen you'd HAVE to pay for the HD premium? That would suck and I doubt studios are going to do that, screw Widescreen customers by forcing them to pay for the HD premium.

Your forgeting that when dvd came out many of the dvds were 25$ plus for the movies . So people are willing to pay more for new tech .

Definately true but also true it will stiffle the adoption rate. Enough to hurt the industry? Probably not but higher costs will slow it.

You're forgetting one huge difference between then and now though. Back then, even a common/standard TV could show the difference between VCR and DVD movies. So DVDs were immediately the better technology over VCRs and anyone who bought a DVD player immediately got a better picture. Which means that the market for DVD players was literally the amount of people who owned TVs.

This is NOT going to be true for either BR or HD-DVD players though because only a very small % of current TV owners have good enough TVs to reap the benefit of HD media (thank goodness I'm one! ). Therefore the market for these players is already going to be much much smaller than was previously for DVD players when it came out. Believe me, HD sets are selling nicely now but it's going to be years till they reach the penetration of bog-standard CRTs.

well thats the point dvds have lasted over 10 years and will have another 3-4 years of the highest selling media format for movies . So why would the movie studios care if they have to sell a hybrid for the first 3 years . IT can only help adoption as people can also use the discs on the old players .

Well the point is that once I have the hybrid disc version of Striptease, I certainly am not going to buy another version later on. But if there is no hybrid version, I might buy the DVD version now, then the strictly BR or HD-DVD version later on because that girl is sooo fine - ok, she's pretty scary looking but you hopefully understand where I'm coming from. Studios want to charge you as many times as they can.

 

[jvd]

I had to check since you mentioned Evil Dead (what a funny movie!) Only 2 SKUs at Bestbuy.com, one for the first and one for Evil Dead 2. Most movies have 2 SKUs at most. Imagine increasing the shelf space for movies by 50%! This assumes of course that every movie would come out in 3 versions - which is unlikely. But the less movies that come out, the less the adoption rate is going to be.

No there are def more , i know because i was in the store sunday . There is evil dead cultimate collectors , evil dead book of the dead , evil dead , evil dead directors cut just to name some off the top of my head .

 

[-tkf-]

Dual layer HD DVD currently costs a fraction of what even single layer BD costs.

You have something to back this statement up with, i mean, is there any plant out there that actually produce BR or HD-DVD?

 

[London Geezer]

what exactly is "how cares "


Anyway now your backtracking because you know i'm right . Its a good idea no matter what the tech be it bluray or hd-dvd

Well not really. I'm happy with any HD material, be it BR, HDDVD, hybrid, 3 layer, 4 sided, double whopper, with or without cheese. Just as long as we get the freaking thing here soon, i'm happy.

 

[aaaaa00]

Dual layer HD DVD currently costs a fraction of what even single layer BD costs.

You have something to back this statement up with, i mean, is there any plant out there that actually produce BR or HD-DVD?

Plenty to back it up with, unless there's some new magical technology that BD has been keeping secret for some reason. (Which would make no sense at all for them to do at this point.)

Nothing that I can elaborate on though. Believe what you want.

We'll see what happens this fall.

 

[London Geezer]

Dual layer HD DVD currently costs a fraction of what even single layer BD costs.

You have something to back this statement up with, i mean, is there any plant out there that actually produce BR or HD-DVD?

Plenty to back it up with, unless there's some new magical technology that BD has been keeping secret for some reason. (Which would make no sense at all for them to do at this point.)

Nothing that I can elaborate on though. Believe what you want.

We'll see what happens this fall.

Why is BR so much more expensive then, seeing how Toshiba is changing HDDVD as much as possible to reach BR's capacitiy? You talk about HDDVD being a fraction of the cost.

 

[aaaaa00]

Why is BR so much more expensive then, seeing how Toshiba is changing HDDVD as much as possible to reach BR's capacitiy? You talk about HDDVD being a fraction of the cost.

The basic problem is the 0.1mm cover layer, which is fundamental to the BD physical design and the key to its high capacity per layer.

Despite what you may have read in press releases from various BD members, the disc duplicators are still having a lot of problems getting the necessary precision on the cover layer in mass production, and are thus getting lots of bad discs, and/or resorting to extremely expensive methods to apply the cover layer.

Barring some magical technological breakthrough, this will take a significant amount of time to figure out.

IMHO it is unlikely that disc duplicators will be able to make dual layer BD in commercially reasonable quantities for quite some time, most likely leaving first generation single layer BD at 25GB competing with dual layer HD DVD at 30GB.

HD DVD does not have these manufacturing problems since the processes are well understood, and yields on test production lines are already comparable to regular DVD, hence the projected low cost for the discs.

But hey, my info could be stale, out of date, or just plain wrong.

 

[one]

IMHO it is unlikely that disc duplicators will be able to make dual layer BD in commercially reasonable quantities for quite some time, most likely leaving first generation single layer BD at 25GB competing with dual layer HD DVD at 30GB.

Where did you get that idea?
Dual layer HD DVD is far far away in 2007 while Matsushita starts full pilot production of dual-layer BD-ROM in the end of 2005.

 

[London Geezer]

Gosh. Will it ever be possible to get FACTS that are actually real FACTS and not opinions in this thread (and the forum in general).

Ask a question, someone answers, i understand, then someone else comes in and contraddicts everything.

Not saying anyone is wrong, either aaaaa00 or one, i'm here to learn what's going on cause i don't know, but it's just SO confusing and frustrating. I can't defragment my brain with every post.