Black XB360 120 Gig HDD + HDMI = $479

[Vic]

Agreed on both counts.
It is an interesting bet considering the lack of hdd, but at this price it will become an appealing choice to many gamers that will not (for various reasons) buy a console (or buy one for others ) above this price point.

Agreed on the analysis of the Elite. I think it was a mistake to introduce it at that price.

Haha! But you Americans are lucky (again) to get it for such a price!

£70 is $140!

 

[Vic]

There's no such thing as "future proofing".

MS's "quick launch" strategy has been a big win for them and has, and will continue to, benefit them far more than delaying and offering HDMI on the system. What kind of "long term" advantage do you think throwing away their 10 million none-HDMI system advantage would gvie them? What kind of tremendous, industry development momentum shifting advantage would it gain them?

It'd have gained them nothing, but cost them a great deal.

Most people don't care about the HD-DVD add on and wouldn't care about a Blu Ray add on which will probably never appear. Most people don't care about HDMI 1.3 vs 1.2, about uncompressed audio in HI-Def movies they won't play because they don't want to pay for the HD-DVD add on, or about the fact that earlier systems than the one they're interested in buying didn't have the HDMI connector that they're actually free to use.

They do, however, care about which system has the games they want, how much the thing costs, and, perhaps in some small way, how good the graphics are.

Wrong.

As Democoder has pointed out, HDMI is going to be the industry standard for digital out for the next few years.

And 20GB when people want to download 720p content is negligible.

 

[TheChefO]

Haha! But you Americans are lucky (again) to get it for such a price!

£70 is $140!

Well regardless of price difference of regions, I think it was a mistake to introduce an sku at a price anywhere near ps3. Though it seems they are doing so intentionally given the pricing scheme you just outlined. Seeing as ps3 is only available as the 60gb model in Europe, it seems they are trying to align parity between consoles in Europe and by pricing the Elite at $20 less than the 20gb ps3 here, they are doing the same.

Interesting.

Personally I think it's a mistake but I'm sure they have enough money to run proper case studies to see which would be most beneficial in the big picture for them.

If there is a backlash though (significant ps3 sales uptick vs xb360 sales), I wouldn't be surprised.

 

[DemoCoder]

Mapping a digital signal to an external port that is then encrypted by a dongle? I'm quite sure you can't do that and get a HDCP license. At the very core, it is completely against what HDCP is about.

I'm not sure it's the HDCP license that's the issue, but getting an AACS license. If you're asking whether you can get a license to make a device which takes unencrypted content and produces HDMI output, the answer is yes, and there are several devices on the market that do this today. It's the reverse that you won't get a license for (stripping HDCP, which is what some devices do, usually via an easter-egg)

Unless you are talking HDMI w/o HDCP, which then wouldn't allow upconversion of DVD's, Providers would have a problem with providing HiDef content on Live, and HD/DVD would not be allowed at all.

Err, Bravo D1 DVD players did upconversion over DVI with no HDCP. You can plug these into an DVI->HDMI adapter and they work just fine on HDMI displays (atleast on mine)

But if you're concerned, all you need to do is equip the digital A/V port with authentication. You could trivially do this by piggy backing a 16-byte challenge over the DDC or DDC-like channel, and equiping the dongle with logic to hand back an MD5 or SHA1 response. The cheapest way to do this would be to simply put a <$1 smartcard chip in there, many of which contain hardware accelerated MD5 blocks, or simply evaluate MD5 in software on the chip (easily done, public sources are available)

Then the display would refuse to output an unencrypted single to any dongle unless the dongle was authenticated. Whilest one could still interpose a proxy between the dongle and the port, this would serve to prevent third party dongles, but still permit ripping if you really wanted. But then again, one can always rip HDMI if one is really serious about it. The issue is the threat model you want to protect again. Really dedicated people will simply mod the 360 mainboard to rip the signals. Dedicated hackers already ripped HD-DVD by simple memory probes to find the session key, so software is an issue too.

Anyway, the issue isn't that it isn't possible to do with some upfront design, it's that MS didn't do it. I have no doubt they could have created a design that would permit future HDMI expansion and maintain a reasonable level of security at low cost. The reality is, they weren't interested in these users or the future of the HD Era, but in launching ASAP, which is why their first batch of consoles had IMHO an unacceptably high rate of defects.

 

[scooby_dooby]

This issue is sort of beating a dead horse imo.

It is somewhat puzzling why MS decided not to build a system that could send a digital output, the only reasonable explanation was they they did not feel the cost:benefit ratio was there, and did not feel HDMI was a signifigant selling point.

But in the end, this is not new news, I think it's a little childish to try and dredge up this old debate using MS's new sku as further 'proof' of their mistakes.

We know they made a (minor) mistake. Is it a big deal though? Not at all. People bought the console knowing what the available connections were. Moving on....

 

[Brimstone]

I get the impression the reason that there is no new black HD-DVD player along with the elite, is because the HD-DVD specs change is going to be implemented. Toshiba is going to release a new add-on model that supports triple layer HD-DVDs along with the ability to spin them faster.



Microsoft isn't targeting people intrested in HD-DVD with the elite. That will come later once Toshiba starts producing the new upgraded spec HD-DVD drives.


If they had HDMI 1.3 full spec compliance, it might actually encourage people to go out and buy a HD-DVD add-on which would be bad from a PR perspective, because a few months down the road, the new HD-DVD add-on will be launched.

 

[Vic]

I get the impression the reason that there is no new black HD-DVD player along with the elite, is because the HD-DVD specs change is going to be implemented. Toshiba is going to release a new add-on model that supports triple layer HD-DVDs along with the ability to spin them faster.



Microsoft isn't targeting people intrested in HD-DVD with the elite. That will come later once Toshiba starts producing the new upgraded spec HD-DVD drives.


If they had HDMI 1.3 full spec compliance, it might actually encourage people to go out and buy a HD-DVD add-on which would be bad from a PR perspective, because a few months down the road, the new HD-DVD add-on will be launched.

Wow, people who bought the 1st gen HD DVD players will be gutted.

Then again TDK have produced a six-layer 200GB Blu-ray disc which wont be compatible with current Blu-ray players. For me, Toshiba's problem is support. It lacks proper support from MS, and while it has support from HP, PC HD DVD drives are ridiculously expensive at the moment, and you need a graphics card that is HDCP compliant so you may aswell buy a standalone.

 

[rbushner]

Err, Bravo D1 DVD players did upconversion over DVI with no HDCP.

That is an exception, not a rule.

I'm dropping it, but I think adding a HDMI dongle would've caused more problems than it solved.

The only benefit to me for HDMI would be for audio, and neither of my receiver's supports it. On both of my TV's component does as good as HDMI/DVI, and doesn't have syncing issues (like the FIOS cable boxes).

I think MS has done really well, they have made a very nice media machine for the living room. My only concern is that they start to feel the Premium is justified to stay at it's current price if the Elite does well.

 

[Sis]

I'm sure they're hoping that Elite sell the most. I think they'll do it if they press home Elites advantages. Everyone is saying that premium will sell by far the most, but I dont think it'll be as clea-cut as that.

I'm sure they hope for wild success; but we're talking expectations. They have publicly stated that they expect premium to be the primary seller.

Once again, if MS adds a Blu-ray add-on, it'll merely add to the perception (and reality) that its whole strategy has been short-sighted. Quick to launch-good in the short term, but in the long-term? I think it'll hurt them. Three SKU's, the lack of future-proofing and the expensive add-ons to effectively 'catch-up' with the competition.

I agree with this sentiment; I don't believe MS will ever add a Blu-ray add-on though.

 

[Brimstone]

Wow, people who bought the 1st gen HD DVD players will be gutted.

Then again TDK have produced a six-layer 200GB Blu-ray disc which wont be compatible with current Blu-ray players. For me, Toshiba's problem is support. It lacks proper support from MS, and while it has support from HP, PC HD DVD drives are ridiculously expensive at the moment, and you need a graphics card that is HDCP compliant so you may aswell buy a standalone.

Why? It will be probably at least a year before a movie that would take advantage of the new specs would get released. I doubt that even, more like 2 years or more.

The upgrade in specs is about in the longrun of the format, so five years from now triple layer players will be everywhere.

 

[Sis]

I think many people are missing the point that if MS had designed the XB360 for the "HD Era",

Let me simplify the discussion:
1) In this "HD Era", is HDMI required to get HD quality gaming and playback? No.
2) In this "HD Era", would it have been a Good Thing for Microsoft to include HDMI? Yes

I don't understand why there's no gray area for the console to be part of the so-called "HD Era" yet lack an HDMI out.

The zealots just don't seem to want to admit that the original 360 design wasn't perfect, and with some forethought, and minor cost increases, they could have supported a future upgrade path to HDMI for users.

People who don't agree with you not zealots. No one has said the Xbox 360 was perfect.

 

[Vic]

Why? It will be probably at least a year before a movie that would take advantage of the new specs would get released. I doubt that even, more like 2 years or more.

The upgrade in specs is about in the longrun of the format, so five years from now triple layer players will be everywhere.

Point taken.

 

[function]

Wrong.

As Democoder has pointed out, HDMI is going to be the industry standard for digital out for the next few years.

And 20GB when people want to download 720p content is negligible.

You ignored practically my whole post, and chose instead to argue that I'm "wrong" about there being such a thing as future proofing. Please go back and address my points if you have the time, I'm genuinely interested to see how you try and spin it.

Regarding your last post, saying "wrong" then saying "HDMI is going to be the industry standard for digital out for the next few years" basically makes my point. Obsolesence is the way of the world, and the rapid progression of HDMI standards again demonstrates this.

What's significant is that in the lifetime of the first 10 million 360s, you aren't going to have any more problem finding displays to plug these 360s into than you are HDMI systems. The idea that HDMI would give these early 360s some extra way to somehow stay current or defy the ageing process is far-fetched at best.

Convenience I can buy. Image quality, probably yes, you could benefit in some situations. Eternal youth for the patform? No.

Any why bring the size of the HDD up in this debate? That's a whole different platform-advocacy attack point (that applies equally to the PS3). Hopefully we can avoid dragging this into this thread by remembering that not everyone wants to dowload 720p content to their 360.

 

[Todd33]

I think it's a little childish to try and dredge up this old debate using MS's new sku as further 'proof' of their mistakes.

It is kind of is 'proof' whether you want to agree or not. The fact that MS has to basically double the number of SKUs for 360 related products in a years time tells you something. HD-DVD, Elite, 120GB HD, 512MB memory, black accessories, etc.

I'm sure if Sony released a DVD based PS3 for $299 people here would never dance up and down claiming Sony is admitting a mistake, right?

IMO MS rushed to the market and has to pay with more SKUs and a mixed spec user base while Sony reached for too much and has to pay with high prices and a late release.

 

[PARANOiA]

At the end of the day, MS's "mistake" of not including HDMI needs to be compared to Sony's "mistake" of launching a year late.

Who won in the short term? MS by 10,000,000 consoles. Even now, with the PS3 launched, MS continue to outsell the PS3.

In the long term, can the PS3 catch up? That remains to be seen, but there's certainly no evidence to suggest it will. All those claiming doom and gloom need to face facts, and not evangelise HDMI as "the saviour of the console".

 

[TheChefO]

I'm sure if Sony released a DVD based PS3 for $299 people here would never dance up and down claiming Sony is admitting a mistake, right?

Oh man... if Sony announced a $300 dvd based ps3 I'd be jumping up and down saying "THEY'RE BACK!" excited for the increased competition and my next big purchase.

Sad thing is they painted themselves in a corner with BR based games shipping already.

 

[Sis]

It is kind of is 'proof' whether you want to agree or not. The fact that MS has to basically double the number of SKUs for 360 related products in a years time tells you something. HD-DVD, Elite, 120GB HD, 512MB memory, black accessories, etc.

So every new accessory now is a new SKU?

Otherwise, it's a "50%" increase in SKUs...and, well, it's really just 1 new SKU. Not as dramatic as saying "double" though, I suppose.

I'm sure if Sony released a DVD based PS3 for $299 people here would never dance up and down claiming Sony is admitting a mistake, right?

Absolutely. If Sony dropped Blu-ray, a primary reason for having to delay a year, a format that they are actively promoting and have put their full weight behind, then ya, I think I'd call that a pretty big deal.

I am flabbergasted that you would compare dropping blu-ray with adding another output.

IMO MS rushed to the market and has to pay with more SKUs and a mixed spec user base while Sony reached for too much and has to pay with high prices and a late release.

Well, technically every launch is a rush. The fact that Sony is adding Home in the fall shows that they rushed their launch. Has Nintendo launched all their "Channels" yet? Must have been a rushed launch. What's this? A new accessory? Must have been a rushed launch.

 

[Vic]

You ignored practically my whole post, and chose instead to argue that I'm "wrong" about there being such a thing as future proofing. Please go back and address my points if you have the time, I'm genuinely interested to see how you try and spin it.

Regarding your last post, saying "wrong" then saying "HDMI is going to be the industry standard for digital out for the next few years" basically makes my point. Obsolesence is the way of the world, and the rapid progression of HDMI standards again demonstrates this.

What's significant is that in the lifetime of the first 10 million 360s, you aren't going to have any more problem finding displays to plug these 360s into than you are HDMI systems. The idea that HDMI would give these early 360s some extra way to somehow stay current or defy the ageing process is far-fetched at best.

Convenience I can buy. Image quality, probably yes, you could benefit in some situations. Eternal youth for the patform? No.

Any why bring the size of the HDD up in this debate? That's a whole different platform-advocacy attack point (that applies equally to the PS3). Hopefully we can avoid dragging this into this thread by remembering that not everyone wants to dowload 720p content to their 360.

But its still the same basic standard.

Its built for the digital age, its the future. Eternal youth? But how about 5 years, or more than 18 months without a console revision?

Its all well and good saying "Not everyone does this...", but MS has positioned 360 as a multimedia hub, but limited its users options, and worse, segmented it 3 ways. Why offer HD content to users with a tiny HDD? Unless of course, you want to rinse the aforementioned userbase by selling overpriced peripherals/ additional overpriced (certainly in the UK) SKU's...

 

[Todd33]

So every new accessory now is a new SKU?

Yes, that's what a SKU is.

Otherwise, it's a "50%" increase in SKUs...and, well, it's really just 1 new SKU. Not as dramatic as saying "double" though, I suppose.

Again, I was not talking about a system, I said SKU. Accessories like the HD-DVD, Elite, 120GB, etc. exist to fill the short sightedness of MS. This also goes for adding 1080P after making fun of Sony for a year.

Absolutely. If Sony dropped Blu-ray, a primary reason for having to delay a year, a format that they are actively promoting and have put their full weight behind, then ya, I think I'd call that a pretty big deal.

I am flabbergasted that you would compare dropping blu-ray with adding another output.

I compared them, I never said they were equivalent. Don't take such discussions so personally, they are game systems, chill out.

Well, technically every launch is a rush. The fact that Sony is adding Home in the fall shows that they rushed their launch. Has Nintendo launched all their "Channels" yet? Must have been a rushed launch. What's this? A new accessory? Must have been a rushed launch.

MS rushed the hardware, Sony rushed the software. Which one is easier to patch? notice Sony doesn't need new SKUs (not systems) to add things like Home while MS needs SKUs which take shelf space and confuse customers?

I'm not saying MS screwed up more, but this was a thread about the 360, why you guys love to bash the PS3 as a replacement for real discussion is beyond me.

 

[Sis]

Why offer HD content to users with a tiny HDD? Unless of course, you want to rinse the aforementioned userbase by selling overpriced peripherals/ additional overpriced (certainly in the UK) SKU's...

It's actually a good question.

Why would they pack the premium in with only a measly 20 gig hard drive (less if you count the reserved space)?

I can think of a few:

1) Perhaps they got a deal on 20 gig drives?

Or

2) They were unsure of to what extent HD downloads would take off. This would include number of consumers downloading as well as number of downloads per user. If the first number is small, then 20 gig makes sense. If the first number is large, yet the second number is small, 20 gig still makes sense. If the first number is large and the second number is large, then they woefully underestimated how successful they would be. That's always a good position to be in.

Or

3) They decide to intentionally ship a drive that they knew full well won't work for consumers, thus forcing the masses to buy the bigger drive. (I have my own prediction about that $180 add-on drive--It will sell worse than the HD DVD add-on.)