Black XB360 120 Gig HDD + HDMI = $479

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Agreed. I hope we can leave the PR damage control to people who actually get paid to do it.

No damage control at all.

One made a smirky comment that doesn't even relate to what was said in the interview. MS never changed their mind. They stated back in 2005 that HDMI would be an option based on demand/market forces. While the interview has FUD, this part of the interview didn't. And the fact he is pointing out common misinformation and misconceptions perpetuated online about HD and, as his job details, promoted the new features of the platform (namely 1080p support).

The fact the 360 now has software running in native 1080p on their platform without HDMI -- a concern at the time of the interview -- validates his point that HDMI isn't necessary for HD content, even 1080p. Based on the 1080p/HDMI rhetoric from the other side of the fence prior to this interview his answer makes absolute sense from a platform marketing/education perspective.
 
Joshua no offense but it just seems like you're typing a press release for something that was just mentioned in jest. Someone posts "hey look what this guy said about HDMI" and all I thought was "yeh that's funny - let's move on". Why do you feel the need to type 5 paragraphs explaining to us what this guy did or did not mean? I don't get it.

There's too many people here speaking like company spokesmen rather than a consumer.
 
Talking about spin...

Supposedly? His answer to the HDMI question is directed specifically at this sort of FUD. You must have a different definition of HD because the basic premise is the ability to display an HD image on an HD display. The 360 game console displays HD game content on HD displays. Most HDTVs use component cables and the last time I checked the 360 supported HDTV resolutions over component cables. There is no supposedly about it. The device works on HD displays and has a number of outputs that support 720p, 1080i, and even 1080p. This is a forst/trees issue: If you are providing HD resolutions that almost all displays accept does the lack of a certain (un-released at the time) plug invalidate the "HD-ness" of the device? Does omitting unreleased HD optical movie support for a gaming platform invalidate its use as an HD Era Console? No.

I agree with you 100%, but I still think MS should have released it with DVI-I output with HDCP support for digital transfer, which is HDMI compatible and was certainly available well prior the launch. I was pissed when I found out that it only has analog output, even if only for the reason that I had bought quite expensive DVI 4 in 1 out switch box. I had planned to connect my PC, DVD-player X360 and PS3 to it, now it will have one empty socket...
edit: and My TV only has one component input so I have fool around with it...
 
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There's too many people here speaking like company spokesmen rather than a consumer.

That works both ways...

Since E3 2005 the official line has been:

We believe that we have the right set of outputs right now to meet the requirements of people who have HDTV sets today. We're continuing to look at what's going on in the future, and as things change, we've developed a very flexible system, so we can adapt to the different demands that are out there.

Look for any Todd Holmdahl interview.
 
No damage control at all.

One made a smirky comment that doesn't even relate to what was said in the interview. MS never changed their mind. They stated back in 2005 that HDMI would be an option based on demand/market forces. While the interview has FUD, this part of the interview didn't. And the fact he is pointing out common misinformation and misconceptions perpetuated online about HD and, as his job details, promoted the new features of the platform (namely 1080p support).

The fact the 360 now has software running in native 1080p on their platform without HDMI -- a concern at the time of the interview -- validates his point that HDMI isn't necessary for HD content, even 1080p. Based on the 1080p/HDMI rhetoric from the other side of the fence prior to this interview his answer makes absolute sense from a platform marketing/education perspective.

HDMI isn´t need for 1080p if you use the VGA output (correct me if i´m wrong here) if not you will get 1080i from the component, i wonder if there is any display devices that supports 24p stuff from a 1080i input?. Besides, how typical is VGA input on TV´s?

With HDMI Microsoft have an output that will support the next holy grail of HD-DVD and BluRay players, 24p support, and a REAL 1080p output that can be used for movies.
 
yeah, vga inputs are more common than DVI input when i look at current LCD HDTVs. i guess it is there primarily as a alternate 16:9 monitor

btw, Amir M said that there will not be 16:10 resolutions for spring update, whilst he thinks there should be. seems i can't get 16:10 screens then.
 
Talking about spin...

Talk about apologism.

Supposedly? His answer to the HDMI question is directed specifically at this sort of FUD. You must have a different definition of HD because the basic premise is the ability to display an HD image on an HD display.

We're not talking about the defination of "HD", but the definition of "HD Era". The SD era encompassed TV from the first black and white sets up to today's top SD analog sets. But to simplify, let's take NTSC vs ATSC, which was approved in 1953, meaning the "SD Era" lasted for 40+ years. You'd have to be an absolute moron not to realize that the "HD Era", even within the XBox360's lifetime, will consist of a considerable number of HDMI displays, thus it is not FUD to say that the initial SKU was not a forward looking design, but a stop-gap.


blah blah blah...again answering strawman statements I never made, as if I claimed HD is not possible without HDMI.. Making the same mistake as the M$ MouthPiece

By the time HDTVs become the significant majority of device users, let alone HDMI, the 2010+ consoles will be out.

200% yearly growth, and 5million+ HDTVs sold in 4Q 2006 alone. Profile of average owner matches profile of those likely to buy expensive consoles, exactly the audience Microsoft is selling to today. Do the math. The "significant majority of device users" won't even be reached until the XBox360 starts selling for less than $200, so let's dispense with that fiction. The people buying millions of >$300 game consoles, are the same people buying newer HDTVs. By next year, the number of HDMI capable HDTVs will probably exceed the total X-Box360 installed base.

HDMI isn't some HD Era defining feature for a home console. Ditto HD DVD/BluRay.

Most video cards can still work just fine on the AGP bus, but that doesn't mean I don't prefer a PCI-Express card. The fundamental fact here is a new display port industry standard widely adopted, was not supported by MS's flagship console. It's not a matter of "well, no one will be able to tell the difference on VGA/Component", it's a matter of "I've got a brand new $4000 HDTV or A/V Receiver with HDMI switching inputs and this console forces me to deal with analog inputs"

Every new CE device I buy has HDMI. Hmm, everyone else seems to understand that the "HD Era" means supporting features that modern HDTVs have.

I guess all HD devices that lack support for these new and updated standards are only "supposedly" built for the HD Era.

How can you claim you built for the "HD Era" when in fact, you didn't? MS's excuse that they were waiting to see how the market for HDMI panned out is ludicrous. HDMI is 100% certain and predictable to be the standard for display connectivity for the forseeable future. There are not competitors for TV (nope, not DisplayPort either), period. All future HDTVs will be HDMI and if you're buying an HDTV now that isn't HDMI capable, you're being ripped off.

The Xbox360 "HD Era" marketing smells suspiciously like a late phase invention intended to capitalize on surprising growth of HD sales, but it's not clear to me that the project originated with the intent to be targeted specifically at HD adopters. For starters, the eDRAM design looks purposely targeted at 480p 4xAA non-tiled, whereas I'd expect a no-holds-barred HD design to minimally target enough memory to hold a 720p 4xAA non-tiled buffer minimally.
 
How can you claim you built for the "HD Era" when in fact, you didn't? MS's excuse that they were waiting to see how the market for HDMI panned out is ludicrous. HDMI is 100% certain and predictable to be the standard for display connectivity for the forseeable future. There are not competitors for TV (nope, not DisplayPort either), period. All future HDTVs will be HDMI and if you're buying an HDTV now that isn't HDMI capable, you're being ripped off.
I agree, I bet the great majority of the HD-ready television sets build in 2005 and 2006 had HDMI input as well.
 
How? 1080i/72hz ?

By inverse 3:2 pulldown. We've been over this a dozen times, last time in this thread.

And by the way, you get uneven cadence when transmitting 24Hz material on 1080p60 also. You'll get 3-2-3-2 frames instead of 3-2-3-2 fields in the interlaced case.

Cheers
 
Just curious, do you have a lot of HD tv stations/channels in the US ? Because at least in france i think we have none yet.
 
I agree, I bet the great majority of the HD-ready television sets build in 2005 and 2006 had HDMI input as well.

Maybe in 2006 but in 2005? I don't think so.

Build and sold are different things too... I'm pretty sure most sold sets (in Europe at least) in 2006 didn't have HDMI.
 
Talk about apologism.
MS's excuse that they were waiting to see how the market for HDMI panned out is ludicrous. HDMI is 100% certain and predictable to be the standard for display connectivity for the forseeable future.

HDMI 1.0, 1.1, 1.2, 1.3 or 1.3a ?

HDMI wasn't a standard by any means of the word in early/mid 2005 when the decision had to be made to support HDMI or not. There was zero incentive for MS to support a kludged up semi-standard (1.0/1.1) that was 100% certain to be obsolete in two years time. They went with what had the largest market share, - catering to the majority of HDTV users out there.

Cheers
 
Oh come on. This is some of the most generous spin of an already highly spun interview. The guy was asked a simple question, and instead of answering it, instead answered his own question, a talking point which probably appeared on his marketing materials, as if the reporter had asked "Don't you need HDMI to enjoy HD video?"

It's like asking why a car was designed without removable rear seats, to which the sales rep says, "well, actually, it's a myth that cars need removable rear seats in order to enjoy the full driving experience"

Then he goes on to imply that PS3 users *MUST* incur the cost of an HDMI cable because the PS3 has HDMI out, when in fact, PS3 owners have the option of forgoing HDMI and using component outputs if they want. He implies that somehow, builtin HDMI = less choice = forced buy of expensive HDMI cable, when in fact, it's merely an option for the user.

And then of course, the hilarious claims about MPEG-2 == MP3 == BluRay, when BR of course sports MPEG2, H.264 AVC and VC-1 just like HD-DVD.

MS obviously wants to avoid a direct answer as to why they avoided HDMI in the design of the original XB360 SKU, a console supposedly built for the HD Era, and I think the obvious reason is that in MS's zeal to beat Sony to market, they rushed it out rather than make them requirements and wait for specs to stabilize. I bet that had HD-DVD and HDMI1.3 already been finalized 1 year before the XB360 came out, the XB360 would have been designed with HD-DVD and HDMI as requirements. Sony had BR and HDMI as requirements, hence, their roadmaps had to be delayed minimally waiting for these to stabilize. MS wasn't willing to wait. Not including atleast a way to route signals to an external A/V multiport for a future HDMI/HDCP dongle was a big oversight on MS's part, and the Elite's existence is a testament to that fact.

Personally, I think MS went overboard on a la carte, to the detriment of users. A multiplicity of SKUs will ultimately confuse mainstream users, when mommie goes to buy Johny his XB360 birthday present, and an HD-less SKU is just stupid, and a pain for developers to deal with another optional platform component.

On the other hand, it's probably good that the XB360 didn't ship with HD-DVD since the death of HD-DVD would mean useless functionality, it would have also prolonged the format wars by putting 10 million HD-DVD players out there. Of that, we can thank MS for helping to sink HD-DVD.


Great post. I think MS missed the boat with HDMI, with 360 being positioned as a HD mulitmedia hub. Its also something the marketing men use as a differentiator. Thats one reason why I think the Premium will begin to fade when Elite comes out (along with 20GB HDD being too limited). In essence, its a price increase, because many people would have wanted HDMI in the first place.

I agree about HD DVD though. Its getting steamrolled in Europe. It appears closer in the US, but the momentum seems to be running in one direction.
 
By inverse 3:2 pulldown. We've been over this a dozen times, last time in this thread.

And by the way, you get uneven cadence when transmitting 24Hz material on 1080p60 also. You'll get 3-2-3-2 frames instead of 3-2-3-2 fields in the interlaced case.

Cheers

Not sure i understand you, my question was if there was any 1080i sets that supported 24p, you know like in 24fps x 3 = 72hz or something like that where you don´t have the uneven cadence.
 
Not sure i understand you, my question was if there was any 1080i sets that supported 24p, you know like in 24fps x 3 = 72hz or something like that where you don´t have the uneven cadence.

You're thinking in screen refresh terms, but for PDPs and LCDs screen-refresh is (or can be) completely de-coupled from the input. Hence the display panel itself can be driven at 24Hz for 24Hz material. That is, you can feed your TV 1080i60, 1080p60 or 1080p24 and the TV can still drive the display internally at 24Hz (or an integer multiple thereof) if it recognizes the input as a 3:2 pulled down stream.

And yes, there are new TVs that support 1080i60 and 1080p24, but not 1080p60.

Cheers
 
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