All purpose Sales and Sales Rumours and Anecdotes [2019 Edition]

[milk]

Did I say it was crazy, or did I say there was reason not to? Any link?

You didn't use those words. You used these:

That's two tiers of the same hardware and the same executable. A PS5 game shouldn't be compatible with PS4 because it'll have all sorts of other hardware to work with, and it makes little sense to bloat PS5 games with PS4 code paths. And likewise, you don't want 3 discs of your PS4 game to install only 1/3rd of the assets on those discs.

I'm not sure what the argument is to want this feature. Reduction in stock concerns with less SKUs?

and these:

What's wrong with just a normal PS5 version with its own disc? Make a PS4 game, port to PS5 with a few nicer assets, put it in a normal PS5 case as a normal PS5 game.

Also, I'm being playful here, friend, not confrotational. I hope you understand that.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

Okay. Did feel confrontational and I didn't want words being put into my mouth!

I don't see my position having changed though. Those quotes are regarding distributing a game as both PS4 and PS5 version combined. We're talking here about enhanced BC games, which would likely be delivered as a patch to run alongside the PS4 disc, or as a PS5 download that uses the PS4 disc as a key, or as a PS5 game in itself. I think enhanced BC titles has merit in transitioning players, but don't see the value in dual-SKU game discs.

 

[wco81]

They are going to make proper remasters (4K 60fps + higher res textures + ray tracing lighting + 3D audio) and people will be happy to buy them. For the people not wanting to buy remasters, well they will be able to play the PS4 game they already own using BC with a locked framerate / locked resolution and dramatically shorter loadings.

Since when developers have to do work for free and patch old generation of games to take advantage of a new generation of machine ? What's going to happen with PS6 then ? Will Sony have to benevently patch PS4 games to take advantage of PS6 hardware ?

Yeah they remastered GOW and LOU and Uncharted didn't they? Sold them for $20 or $30. But they didn't seem to be huge sellers?

 

[Silent_Buddha]

That's an interesting thought. As a method to get people to move to the newest generation console faster, which would have more impact?

• Loss leader strategy. Take a loss on each console sold of say 50 USD. Sell remasters for 20-30 USD.
  • If you sell 10 million consoles the first year, that's a 500 million USD loss.
  • Do you sell enough remaster to make up for that? Depending on cost to sell those remaster you may need to sell 40-50 million copies to make up that loss.
• Value add strategy. Don't take a loss on each console. Offer free remaster upgrades of your most popular exclusives if a person already owns the original game. Offer free enhanced backwards compatibility for other titles.
  • It's highly unlikely this will come close to costing 500 million USD.
  • Generates a lot of goodwill.
  • Can still sell the remaster to people who don't own the original game.

Considering that first year sales are likely dominated by owners of existing consoles upgrading to the newest generation, I think that offering free updates to the games they love would get more people to upgrade in that first year rather than waiting until later in the generation for the cost to come down.

Then again with each company now having a good idea of what their competition can do technically and each having made their big mistake (PS3...XBO) and learning from it (PS4...XBO-X), they may feel they really need to up the ante and bring their A game for the next generation. Perhaps they feel that in order to compete they'll have to eat costs.

Or, in the case of MS, offer a premium option from the start instead of waiting until mid-gen?

It'd be interesting to be able to sit in on all the decision making and planning that each company is doing. How much is it just about doing their thing and making a profitable console? How much of it is trying to anticipate what the competition is going to do? How much of a risk (loss leader strategy) is each company willing to take?

IMO, I think each company is looking more towards a value add strategy rather than a loss leader strategy. But who knows? That's the fun of speculating.

Looking at PC, it isn't uncommon to get free graphical remaster upgrades for games. CDPR did it with The Witcher 1 and 2. Gearbox recently did it with Borderlands 1. The latest Tomb Raider and BF V got a free RT upgrade. Others have done free upgrades as well.

IMO, that's a great way to get people to upgrade their hardware.

Regards,
SB

 

[Xbat]

Yeah they remastered GOW and LOU and Uncharted didn't they? Sold them for $20 or $30. But they didn't seem to be huge sellers?

They did but it's not an apple to apple comparison, PS4 wasn't backwards compatible with PS3.

 

[milk]

I don't see my position having changed though. Those quotes are regarding distributing a game as both PS4 and PS5 version combined. We're talking here about enhanced BC games, which would likely be delivered as a patch to run alongside the PS4 disc, or as a PS5 download that uses the PS4 disc as a key, or as a PS5 game in itself. I think enhanced BC titles has merit in transitioning players, but don't see the value in dual-SKU game discs.

So if a game is released in the future for PS4 with PS5 enhancements, how do you sell the box. Do you release a separare PS4 and a PS5 box? If I buy the wrong one, am I allowed to download the correct one for free? Or do you only make a PS4 box. Are you realy not gonna put a "PS5 enhanced" seal in there too? Why lose that oportunity? Because that what I've suggested. Any game planning to be cross-gen this gen, will essentially be ps4/xbone only games with downloadable ps5/xbnxt enhancement patches, preferably coming on the disk itself if the space is available, with "for PS4" on the box + "PS5 enhanced" seal right next to it. It's the smartest way to market it in my opinion.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

We're not talking cross-gen games, but PS4 games running as BC titles. The PS4 game runs on PS5, enhanced. You put the PS4 disc of Uncharted 4 into your PS5 and can play it, perhaps having to download an optional enhancement pack. The amount of additional content needed for the PS5 will be minimal because they're not remasters or remakes with HD texture packs or anything, but just tweaked and patched at minimal cost (according to our ideas in the previous posts anyhow), so it doesn't need 50+ GBs of additional storage. If Sony want to go and improve assets with HD texture packs, they'll want to keep that download only to drive people onto their store. Heck, make it PS+ only, as Sony really want everyone paying that subscription fee instead of just half!

Cross-gen games will be sold individually as PS4 and PS5 versions like every other console generation. I don't see any particular need to change that next-gen. List of cross gen games this gen...
https://www.forbes.com/sites/erikka...he-top-12-cross-gen-video-games/#12b1cb1a43b1

Titanfall
Destiny
Watch Dogs
Battlefield 4
COD:Ghosts
ACIV
Dragon Age: Inquisiition
Dying Light
Evil Within
Wolfenstein New Order
MGSV
Thief

None of them came with a generational combo box. PS3's BRD could have fit both titles onto one disc probably. I think companies are happier to sell you the game on your current box, then resell it on the new one.

 

[Globalisateur]

Yeah they remastered GOW and LOU and Uncharted didn't they? Sold them for $20 or $30. But they didn't seem to be huge sellers?

Not sure about GOW or Uncharted remastered by they sold about 12 million of TLOU remastered on PS4 alone. And it wasn't $20 the first year, I think $50 during the first year and an half.

They don't need to give free enhancements of their PS4 games on PS5. Microsoft need it because they are outsold 3 to 1 wordwide. I see MS free BC and free enhancements like the free online of PS3. PS3 needed it to regain a bit of market share.

Now in 2020 and during probably the first year, Sony are most probably going to sell every PS5 they produce at full price. They don't need to give gifts like that to players. They are the market leader. TLOU2 will sell tons on PS4 and the remaster will sell tons on PS5 because of the enhancements, particularly with RT + 60fps, will be significant and considering how detailed Naughty dog games are, the remaster won't be some quick job. At best they'll patch PS4 TLOU2 with an uncapped framerate on PS5.

Did Nintendo give their remasters for free on Switch ? Mario Kart 8 Deluxe ? New super mario bros Deluxe ? No those are full price remasters because they are highly rated games (>90) and evergreen sellers.

 

[milk]

We're not talking cross-gen games, but PS4 games running as BC titles. The PS4 game runs on PS5, enhanced. (...)

Cross-gen games will be sold individually as PS4 and PS5 versions like every other console generation. I don't see any particular need to change that next-gen. List of cross gen games this gen...

Don't you think consumers will become less accepting of a separate ps4 and ps5 version of games (with separate different boxes and product listings in online store, both at full price) after some sony late ps4 titles already have free enhanced ps5 available? What is a next gen version of a cross-gen game if not an enhanced late last gen game (from the consumer perspective)
Sure this would be new. But so are PRO/X 4k patches and fully BC next gen consoles after patches became a thing. Consumer expectations are achanging.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

They don't need to give free enhancements of their PS4 games on PS5.

No-one said they need to. The suggestion is about encouraging adoption of a new platform and generating good will. The cost should be minimal (you'd only do it if it was minimal - if it costs a lot, sell a proper remaster) and it'd create lots of positive buzz.

Don't you think consumers will become less accepting of a separate ps4 and ps5 version of games (with separate different boxes and product listings in online store, both at full price) after some sony late ps4 titles already have free enhanced ps5 available? What is a next gen version of a cross-gen game if not an enhanced late last gen game (from the consumer perspective).

No-one's ever been confused by BC before. PS2 played PS1 games in improved quality. Didn't upset anyone or confuse anyone. There's a whole generational difference between an XBox One game and an XB360 game running in enhanced BC. BC lets you play last-gen console games on your new console, thereby letting you keep your library, thereby encouraging users to stay in the ecosystem. It doesn't need special consideration for cross-gen games - never has done. When a new game comes out, either buy it for your last-gen console, or wait and buy it for your next-gen console when you get it. If you buy the PS4 version and then play it on the PS5, it'll be improved over the PS4 version but not as good as the PS5 native version, giving you the choice to either buy the PS5 version or stick with the PS4 version.

I doubt any company except Sony will go to lengths to provide significant last-gen enhancements for BC. Why would they? Nothing in it for them.

 

[AlNom]

We may see a repeat of cross-gen upgrading programs, especially with the rising percentage of digital purchases. There could be a few ways to go about it if they want to employ framing effect practices in order to raise the average selling price - offer more SKUs (in the same vein as DVD+BD+digital bundles) where if you buy the super duper content edition, it'll also come with both current/next gen versions, or you buy the plain vanilla separate SKUs etc. etc. combinations. There's probably a couple other ways to go about it for physical purchasers (trade-in programs and such), but it'd be a lot easier to incentivize digital delivery.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

The current system is basically sell your old game. That's certainly how it was for Diablo 3. Not even an upgrade path from 'Launch Diablo 3' to 'Diablo 3 actually-going-to-receive-updates' version, let alone from D3 PS4 to D3 PS5. Given no particular push-back from the market on any other generational transition, I don't see any reason to think there will be this time.

 

[milk]

I believe games coming late in the ps4/bone cycle, either closely before ps5/xbnxt or after it, have one simple economical insentive to include a next gen enhancement patch into the olde-gen version: It's a feature. And an easy to market one. "You can already play this now, on your ps4/bone, and it will look even better once you have ps5/nxt" "you are getting a playable game today, and as an extra you are already building your library of next gen experiences to get a taste of things to come and show off to your neighboor."
A consumer chosing between two titles might prefer the one that offers next gen enhancements for those reasons.
Once a publisher went that path, I don't see a reason to even bother creating the next-gen native version. The old-gen enhanced version IS the next-gen native version as well. It's 2 in one, what a deal, both for the consumer and for the publisher/distributor. For the developmental cost equivalent* of adding an extra performance tier for their title (on top of the already existing pro/x tiers) they both add a marketable feature for the old-gen version and at the same time make what effectively IS the next-gen version. They kill two birds with one stone AND simplify the logistics of the boxed coppies.
*Kind of, but of course not precisely.

I am am not sure this is how things will go, but I just think there is more merit in entertaining that possibility than you are recognising.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

That's kinda what cross-gen has always been. The first next-gen titles are up ports of the last-gen version, with a few nicer textures and better res and framerate. Putting both in the same box box would even be more confusing unless it was universal. Would PS4 owners be looking for the next COD in a PS4 box or a PS5 box? And what if you are buying a PS5 game - do you really want the added pointless PS4 disc?

What's wrong with the alternatives of upgrade policies or downloadable enhancements?

 

[DieH@rd]

Witcher 3 ratios from CDPRed financial report:

During 2015:
PS4 – 48%
PC - 31%
Xbone - 21%
71% Physical / 39% Digital

By the end of 2018:
PC - 44.5%
PS4 - 39.5%
Xbone - 15.5%
39.25% Physical / 60.75% Digital


Very large swing toward digital, PC in the end edged over everyone, and PS4 slayed Xbox [even though Xbox promoted it heavily].

 

[BRiT]

That's about the same as the hardware sales ratio, no?

 

[zed]

I have no idea but I'm guessing
the average price of a PC game is lower than the average price of a console game
I get the impression the PC side like steam etc are often having sales
but Im no expert

 

[Xbat]

Yeah the Witcher 3 had some big sales on PC in 2018.

 

[AzBat]

So if a game is released in the future for PS4 with PS5 enhancements, how do you sell the box. Do you release a separare PS4 and a PS5 box? If I buy the wrong one, am I allowed to download the correct one for free? Or do you only make a PS4 box. Are you realy not gonna put a "PS5 enhanced" seal in there too? Why lose that oportunity? Because that what I've suggested. Any game planning to be cross-gen this gen, will essentially be ps4/xbone only games with downloadable ps5/xbnxt enhancement patches, preferably coming on the disk itself if the space is available, with "for PS4" on the box + "PS5 enhanced" seal right next to it. It's the smartest way to market it in my opinion.

We've talked about this before. Microsoft already has some experience there.

They really need to put the "Xbox X Enhanced" label on 360 games that get that treatment, but haven't seen them do that yet. It's only been on Xbox One games.

Tommy McClain

 

[milk]

We've talked about this before. Microsoft already has some experience there.

They really need to put the "Xbox X Enhanced" label on 360 games that get that treatment, but haven't seen them do that yet. It's only been on Xbox One games.

Tommy McClain

That's exactly what I think very likely could become the norm. It's more practical for everybody, and makes the platform feel more "intelligent" while at it.