[360, PS3] Grand Theft Auto IV

[kyleb]

The DVD will have the potential to stream faster, but how will it work in game if it streams faster at parts and slower at parts (is a question)?

You aren't getting confused over that stupid Saints Row excuse for not having planes are you? Console games are designed around the hardware that is there and even if the new consoles only used x4 DVD drives then GTA4 would be built to run on those just as GTA3 was on the PS2.

 

[one]

When's the PC version release?

I'm sure they will use the HDD to cache on both systems (360 just won't use it if HDD is not present) that's how it works on 360 games anyway.

Also is Blu ray streaming at 2x much faster than 12 x DVD (360)?

Blu-ray is irrelevant, it's confirmed that all PS3 have HDD.

Some game play aspects will be omitted on Xbox 360 Core System if they try to render everything in hi-def.

 

[rabidrabbit]

You aren't getting confused over that stupid Saints Row excuse for not having planes are you?

I am now

 

[TrollFace]

When's the PC version release?

Blu-ray is irrelevant, it's confirmed that all PS3 have HDD.

Some game play aspects will be omitted on Xbox 360 Core System if they try to render everything in hi-def.

I still think streaming is important in a game like GTA for consoles, even for PS3 with standard HDD. With a minimum size HDD of 20GB I just don't think devs can use the HDD in the same manner PC devs can use it (complete install from DVD, no DVD streaming necessary in most PC games). Normally this takes up an average of 2-5GB of gamedata/textures on a PC game nowadays, as cache-speedup. That would mean for PS3 that within no time the 20GB HDD would be out of space, if every game went for "full HDD-install". I think the most imporant game assets that are frequently used will be stored on PS3 HDD, but there would still be streaming needed.

I'm guessing that a 25 or 50GB BR disc will also contain lot's of duplicate gamedata, with most imporant gamedata stored in packets together that seeking time is reduced. The discs are probably not very fully used with the majority of games, so they can duplicate data on BR-disc segments. I can also imagine that lot's of gamedata that is normally compressed on DVD9 storage for 360 to make it fit on 1 dvd disc, will now be more accessible with much lower compressionrates or even none on a PS3 game, since it has so much spare space on a BR. Even if the Cell is pretty comfortable with uncompressing datastreams, they could spare CPU power if they could stream uncompressed data right away from BR.

Another point worth mentioning is : DVD12x speed is rarely reached, that's maximum speed, average speed lies mostly between 8x and 10x speed when reading and accessing gamedata. BR readspeed is constant maximum if it is using CAV mode, but I don't know if they use that mode with a game, or go with standard variable CLV mode.

I can see several disadvantages for 360 in this game, maybe that is related to the 'exclusive content' deal. This could be gamedata that can't get stored onto DVD9 of the 360. 360-devvers can't rely on HDD, so they can't cache if it's a core version of the 360. They also cannot store gamedata too uncompressed on the DVD9 to make the streaming easier, since a 8GB capacity for hi-res textures, hi-q audio etc could be a problem for a huge game like GTA. So i'm guessing the 'excusive content' is probably more of a fleeroute to get missing content on a HDD via Live downloads.

This is what Mark Rein of Epic said in oktober 2005 :

"Unreal Tournament was 6GB compressed. Next Generation games are going to be 20GB plus, and how we're going to fit them on DVD9's I don't know, they'll probably be a few of them. On the PS3, we're going to be using the majority of the space on those Blu-ray disks."

http://www.computerandvideogames.com/article.php?id=125925
So he thinks 20GB-plus is easily needed with next-gen UE3.0 games.

Gamecode-guru David "Elite" Braben (now working on CIA thriller game the Outsider for PS3&360) did also say some peculiar stuff about beneficial streaming possibilities with the Blu ray drive for big worlds versus a DVD. From a specs point of view, the 360 DVD would be more benifical since it has higher datatransferates and lower seektimes, but I guess he doesn't mind the (slight) difference and also prefers higher capacity.

Perhaps one of the most significant elements of the PS3 is the Blu-Ray disc technology. I am a little nervous that with streamed data (ie where data is loaded constantly from disc), the Xbox 360 will still be quite restricted because of the DVD format disc. Revolution is (I think) different again, and is perhaps less powerful, but to be honest it is the platform we know the least about.

http://www.computerandvideogames.com/article.php?id=126257

All in all, there is several views and point of views one can take on this issue.

 

[Synergy34]

That may very well have been the only option that Rockstar was prepared to do, and it was well worth the money IMO.

If Sony payed Bungie XX amount of dollars to release Halo 3 on PS3 simultaneously, would you not consider that a win?

Of course that would be huge but only because Halo is an exclusive title. I think that is totally different then what we have here. I understand the importantance of having the game released along with the PS3 version, I just don't think having to pay for that right is worth it when when game is already on the system but 6 months later.

I still find it hard to believe that they would have to pay for that. If they did, I'm really curious as to how much they had to shell out just to get the game at the same time. Any guesses?

 

[kyleb]

When's the PC version release?

Blu-ray is irrelevant, it's confirmed that all PS3 have HDD.

Some game play aspects will be omitted on Xbox 360 Core System if they try to render everything in hi-def.

Yeah, right, HD gameplay will be crippled if you don't have a HDD atached. Care to wadger a copy of the game on that?

I am now

How so? Like I said, it was just an excuse.

 

[DuckThor Evil]

There is quite reliable rumour going on at a Finnish gaming site saying that GTA 4 will happen in Japan. The main development platform being X360 (whatever that means) and that Game Informer will have exclusive scoop on it after the trailer has come out. Don't blame me if this turns out to be incorrect, I however believe the source.

edit: I quess it's worth noting that this originates from a quite experienced game journalist/ editor in chief of a Finnish gaming magazine...

 

[Cheezdoodles]

When's the PC version release?

Blu-ray is irrelevant, it's confirmed that all PS3 have HDD.

Some game play aspects will be omitted on Xbox 360 Core System if they try to render everything in hi-def.

Rendering resolution is not bottlenecked by streaming at all

 

[xmu]

The main development platform being X360 (whatever that means) and that Game Informer will have exclusive scoop on it after the trailer has come out.

Yeah I heard the same thing at GDC from very reliable sources about X360 being the lead platform.

 

[infinity4]

there are still disc space discussions... how does CRYSIS fit on a DVD???

edit: isn't blu ray advantage limited by 256mb video ram???

 

[Npl]

there are still disc space discussions... how does CRYSIS fit on a DVD???

edit: isn't blu ray advantage limited by 256mb video ram???

PC Games are installed before you can play them from your HDD. Would be more fair to see how much space they occupy after installation.

Then theres the question is Crysis will feature much "unique" content. If you have the same Models & Textures everywhere (Trees), you dont need much space.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

edit: isn't blu ray advantage limited by 256mb video ram???

No. The amount you can show at any given moment is limted by RAM. The amount you can show over the course of a game is limited by storage space. eg. You could have a map that occupies exactly 400 MB when loaded in, and have 200 unique maps on a BRD at 20 GBs.

Even if you don't understand that, look at the last gens. PS1 had 3.5 MB of RAM (1 MB VRAM) and 650 MB storage, 185:1 ratio storage to RAM. PS2 had 32 MB RAM with 9 GB, 281:1 ratio, 140:1 for single sided DVDs. PS3 has about 50:1 25 GB storage to 512 MB RAM. Worst case it's 50 GB to 256 MB VRAM, 195:1. PS1 and PS2 had far more storage relative to system memory, yet they still used it all.

Then compare these with XB360, about 17:1 ratio storage to RAM, which I've just done out of curiosity and it's bucking a major trend.

Console storage to main RAM ratios...

PS1 185:1
PS2 140:1
XB 125:1
Wii 102:1
GC 63:1
PS3 50:1
XB360 17:1
N64 16:1

Console storage to VRAM ratios (meaningless figure included for fun!)...

Wii 3000:1 (9 GB storage to 3 MB guessed eDRAM like Flipper)
PS2 1125:1
PS1 650:1
GC 500:1
XB 125:1
PS3 98:1
XB360 17:1
N64 16:1

 

[infinity4]

i know that Andre Vrignaud (xb division guy) is keep talking about compression being improved and that we don't need to worry, but how much did compression technology actually improve??? and compression also would increase loading time. seems dvd speed advantage comes at cost of cpu decompression time from my wikipedia knowledge

 

[one]

There is quite reliable rumour going on at a Finnish gaming site saying that GTA 4 will happen in Japan. The main development platform being X360 (whatever that means) and that Game Informer will have exclusive scoop on it after the trailer has come out. Don't blame me if this turns out to be incorrect, I however believe the source.

edit: I quess it's worth noting that this originates from a quite experienced game journalist/ editor in chief of a Finnish gaming magazine...

Maybe you should post in the newer thread...
http://forum.beyond3d.com/showthread.php?t=39208

That said, as I wrote here
http://forum.beyond3d.com/showpost.php?p=939745&postcount=18
it's unlikely GTA happens outside of America due to sound track. I think that rumor originated from the old trademarks Rockstar obtained.
http://ps2.ign.com/articles/462/462261p1.html

 

[Bad_Boy]

I still think streaming is important in a game like GTA for consoles, even for PS3 with standard HDD. With a minimum size HDD of 20GB I just don't think devs can use the HDD in the same manner PC devs can use it (complete install from DVD, no DVD streaming necessary in most PC games). Normally this takes up an average of 2-5GB of gamedata/textures on a PC game nowadays, as cache-speedup. That would mean for PS3 that within no time the 20GB HDD would be out of space, if every game went for "full HDD-install". I think the most imporant game assets that are frequently used will be stored on PS3 HDD, but there would still be streaming needed.

I'd just like to point out that VF5 already installs about 5GB on the PS3 HDD, so it wouldnt be as big of a deal as you make it out to be. Unless you are saying they would need to dedicate more than 5GB?

 

[Cheezdoodles]

i know that Andre Vrignaud (xb division guy) is keep talking about compression being improved and that we don't need to worry, but how much did compression technology actually improve???

If the compression technology has improved or not is irrelevant, we have the technology to compress a lot of things, at loss-less quality (or very close to loss-less quality), at very good ratio's. The problem is the performance cost of decompression.

The technology itself wouldn't need to improve a lot, as long as today's consoles are powerful enough to use them efficiently.

 

[scooby_dooby]

there are still disc space discussions... how does CRYSIS fit on a DVD???

edit: isn't blu ray advantage limited by 256mb video ram???

BR advantage is limited by many things, relatively low available ram, low transfer/seek speeds, and low internal memory bandwidth.

 

[Jesus2006]

BR advantage is limited by many things, relatively low available ram, low transfer/seek speeds, and low internal memory bandwidth.

...compared to a DVD9 (12x DVD) avg. (=constant for BR) transfer speeds are actually better for a 2x BR drive, but that's already been discussed alot.

And what about low memory bandwidth?

 

[DuckThor Evil]

Maybe you should post in the newer thread...
http://www.beyond3d.com/forum/showthread.php?t=39208

That said, as I wrote here
http://www.beyond3d.com/forum/showpost.php?p=939745&postcount=18
it's unlikely GTA happens outside of America due to sound track. I think that rumor originated from the old trademarks Rockstar obtained.
http://ps2.ign.com/articles/462/462261p1.html

Well this was the only sensible thread search gave me... and that link doesn't seem to work* might be due to the site upgrade or something. Well I quess we'll find out pretty soon where it's located. I'm not betting my nuts on this, but I'd be surprised if that journalist was talking out his arse.



edit* (actually the first two links are not working properly) the second one takes you back to the forum index.
edit2 now they work just fine... Yeah I should have seen that thread, but it's no biggie.

 

[scooby_dooby]

...compared to a DVD9 (12x DVD) avg.

Funny but I didn't compare it to a 12xDVD in my post. The transfer speed of BR is extremely low relative to it's available space.