Xbox One (Durango) Technical hardware investigation

[Pozer]

Either way, I doubt MS would change their planned reveal because PS4 was anounced early.

We'll know all about it months before it's released.

The 360 coming out event was first week of May 2005. MS was pounded pretty hard then for showing early game footage, (ex. Wall Guy). There was lots of talk then about the 360 being under-powered next to the PS3 which was showing lots of prerendered footage.

I don't think Microsoft will repeat that mistake and show anything half-baked. Last Gen they felt a need to get out the gate first. They don't seem to be taking that same approach.

 

[Cyan]

What "practical raw numbers"?
That's just another article parroting the same stupid stuff. And they are wrong with their "facts" too, btw. They claim Durango is the same combination of 2 prims/clock frontend with a 128bit memory interface as Bonaire. But we all know the memory system of Durango to differ significantly. It's a combination of a 256bit DDR3 interface with an additional eSRAM memory pool. And on top of it Durango also has a CPU cache coherent interconnect through the northbridge to memory. In the light of this I feel quite confident to say that what "expert"reviews writes is simply ridiculous.

From what I understand from the little piece of information we have, my only implication was that there are bandwidth similarities and that if you subtract 2 CUs from Bonaire you get the allegedly same Tflops of Durango. Just sayin'...

Your theory sounds good, I am not saying otherwise, you know your stuff and it's also a theory that leaves a lot of possibilities open. This Bonaire-Durango theory is specific and it has been backed up by several people.

Is it expecting a bit much? I don't think so, that's why I still think it can be realistic. It would only confirm that the other two next generation consoles are closer to each other -performance wise- than we expected judging from the leaked docs.

I was right about the PS4 and when they surprised everyone adding 8GB of GDDR5, as I remained silent, not because I expected that announcement but because I didn't know exactly if adding 4 extra GB of GDDR5 would be possible -or not-.

Maybe now I am just getting it all wrong. We will know the final specs *soon* enough, I think.

Regards

 

[DuckThor Evil]

I think you have little bit of difficulties understanding how similar Bonaire is to other AMDs chips. Bonaire's CUs doesn't execute any more flops than a Cape Verde or Pitcairn CUs. Bonaire is virtually identical to previous AMDs chips, to a degree that AMD isn't even talking about the differences. Of course Bonaire will be similar to Durango's GPU as no other option exist as they are both GCN tech, Durango just has a somewhat lesser spec.

 

[pjbliverpool]

From what I understand from the little piece of information we have, my only implication was that there are bandwidth similarities

The bandwidth comparison is meaningless since they're not even that similar.
Bonaire is 96GB/s in it's standard configuration while Durango is 102.4GB/s + 68GB/s. Plus we've already heard from Dave that Bonaire was considered for a 192b interface which would have meant completely different bandwidth again. Are we to believe that Durango was also part of that same decision making process?

and that if you subtract 2 CUs from Bonaire you get the allegedly same Tflops of Durango. Just sayin'...

Why does this mean anything? Firstly, you don't get the same Tflops as Durango just by dropping 2 CU's, you have to reduce clock speed as well. How is that different to any other GCN based architecture?

7770 - Add 2 CU's, reduce clock speed by 200Mhz = Durango
7850 - Drop 4 CU's and reduce clock speed by 60 Mhz = Durango

How is that fundamentally different from:

7790 - Drop 2 CU's and reduce clock speed by 200Mhz = Durango

 

[SenjutsuSage]

The bandwidth comparison is meaningless since they're not even that similar.
Bonaire is 96GB/s in it's standard configuration while Durango is 102.4GB/s + 68GB/s. Plus we've already heard from Dave that Bonaire was considered for a 192b interface which would have meant completely different bandwidth again. Are we to believe that Durango was also part of that same decision making process?



Why does this mean anything? Firstly, you don't get the same Tflops as Durango just by dropping 2 CU's, you have to reduce clock speed as well. How is that different to any other GCN based architecture?

7770 - Add 2 CU's, reduce clock speed by 40Mhz = Durango
7850 - Drop 4 CU's and reduce clock speed by 60 Mhz = Durango

How is that fundamentally different from:

7790 - Drop 2 CU's and reduce clock speed by 200Mhz = Durango

I knew it! Durango's GPU really is Bonaire after all... I'm just joking. It will be interesting to see what, if any, changes there are. if there are any PS4 level spec surprises, then knowing what we know now, and firmly believing it all to be accurate, would only make the Durango unveil if there's any difference an even bigger deal. So, in a funny way, Microsoft might feel this works to their benefit somewhat, even if they firmly expect to still come in under the overall performance of the PS4, which I don't think they mind in the least.

 

[dobwal]

What "practical raw numbers"?
That's just another article parroting the same stupid stuff. And they are wrong with their "facts" too, btw. They claim Durango is the same combination of 2 prims/clock frontend with a 128bit memory interface as Bonaire. But we all know the memory system of Durango to differ significantly. It's a combination of a 256bit DDR3 interface with an additional eSRAM memory pool. And on top of it Durango also has a CPU cache coherent interconnect through the northbridge to memory. In the light of this I feel quite confident to say that what "expert"reviews writes is simply ridiculous.

Doesn't Durango have a 128bit memory interface to the eSRAM? Wouldn't Bonaire make a good gpu placeholder in the alpha/beta 720 dev kit until the Durango chip or chips are ready? The final dev kits for the 360 prior to launch didn't arrive until 1 or 2 months before launch last gen. And AMD doesn't make an 8 cpu core apu with 12 CUs so whatever shows up in the devs kit prior to Durango should be a plain cpu-gpu setup.

You could be very much right that Bonaire represents a good short term solution to plug in the gap between a 7770 and a 7850 until the second half of this year and its similarities to Durango is coincidence. But unless I am mistaken this strategy is something new for AMD or at least fairly uncommon. When has AMD ever released a next gen part with a current gen designation? Why fast forward the release of just one design to provide what will probably be less than a 6 month stop gap. Is AMD taking a beating on its midrange offerings? If so, then why only one part why not several and release a slew of low/midrange 8000 series part, which AMD has done before?

I understand your reservation as the appearance of a similar part doesn't automatically mean that the gpu is Durango related. But it is odd for this chip to show in the way it has. AMD could have used a 7770 with higher clocks and faster memory to produce a 7790.

 

[pjbliverpool]

I knew it! Durango's GPU really is Bonaire after all... I'm just joking. It will be interesting to see what, if any, changes there are. if there are any PS4 level spec surprises, then knowing what we know now, and firmly believing it all to be accurate, would only make the Durango unveil if there's any difference an even bigger deal. So, in a funny way, Microsoft might feel this works to their benefit somewhat, even if they firmly expect to still come in under the overall performance of the PS4, which I don't think they mind in the least.

I actually made a typo on the 7700 which I've corrected now. Don't get me wrong though, totally agree that Bonaire is the closest match in the AMD lineup for Durango from an architectural point of view, especially if Durango has 2 CU's disabled for yield. But I don't think there's anything particularly unique about Bonaire that must make us point to it and say "look, they've released Durango's GPU on the PC".

 

[3dilettante]

Doesn't Durango have a 128bit memory interface to the eSRAM?

What does the math show for the clock speed of an 128-bit memory interface delivering over 100GB/s?

Wouldn't Bonaire make a good gpu placeholder in the alpha/beta 720 dev kit until the Durango chip or chips are ready?

What time frame do you have for the alpha kits, given that Bonaire isn't on the market yet?

 

[bkilian]

The only person who could know something is bkillian, but I think that the console is being made in near total secrecy to the point that he doesn't know what it is inside the console.

I think he just worked on the audio chip, without knowing exactly which are the other chips the console is going to have.

I'm not saying that he doesn't know, the possibility is there no matter how little, but I think the different Xbox departments don't know what the others are doing, only their supervisors -the bigwigs- know what the console is going to have inside.

So bkillian has to go with the flow and he barely flies in the face of rumours.

No, I knew quite well what was in the unannounced product I was working on. I had access to all the documentation, even though I didn't read all of it. Things like form factor, silicon node process, marketing plans and such were not important for me to know, since I was concerned mainly with how it performs and writing code for it, so I never tried to find that stuff out.

From what I understand from the little piece of information we have, my only implication was that there are bandwidth similarities and that if you subtract 2 CUs from Bonaire you get the allegedly same Tflops of Durango. Just sayin'...

And if you add 6 CUs to Durango, you get the same TFLOPS as PS4. OMG! Hate to tell you this, but every GCN card at the same clock rate and with the same number of CUs will have the same number of TFLOPS. Probably GCN1.1 and GCN2 too, unless they change the number of threads per CU. TFLOPS does not tell you much else about the card other than how many adds and multiplies it can do, which is pretty much set by the number of CUs and clock speed. It doesn't tell you about the memory subsystem, it doesn't tell you about the amount of cache, it doesn't tell you about the number of ROPS it has, or how many planes it can write to, or how it's pipelined, or it's performance with branch heavy code, or pretty much anything.

 

[GrimThorne]

Doesn't Durango have a 128bit memory interface to the eSRAM? Wouldn't Bonaire make a good gpu placeholder in the alpha/beta 720 dev kit until the Durango chip or chips are ready? The final dev kits for the 360 prior to launch didn't arrive until 1 or 2 months before launch last gen. And AMD doesn't make an 8 cpu core apu with 12 CUs so whatever shows up in the devs kit prior to Durango should be a plain cpu-gpu setup.

You could be very much right that Bonaire represents a good short term solution to plug in the gap between a 7770 and a 7850 until the second half of this year and its similarities to Durango is coincidence. But unless I am mistaken this strategy is something new for AMD or at least fairly uncommon. When has AMD ever released a next gen part with a current gen designation? Why fast forward the release of just one design to provide what will probably be less than a 6 month stop gap. Is AMD taking a beating on its midrange offerings? If so, then why only one part why not several and release a slew of low/midrange 8000 series part, which AMD has done before?

I understand your reservation as the appearance of a similar part doesn't automatically mean that the gpu is Durango related. But it is odd for this chip to show in the way it has. AMD could have used a 7770 with higher clocks and faster memory to produce a 7790.

I agree. I don't know why so many people are struggling with this. It really is a solid fit that's just too much of a coincidence. If it turns out to be wrong then it was wrong. A little extra speculation isn't going to hurt anything, especially when you consider we still have absolutely nothing official.

This thread has been relatively quiet for weeks, but now that there is even the hint of ANY speculation or discussion that doesn't fall in line with VGleaks, you get people immediately flying in to crush any possibility of it. lol.

 

[3dilettante]

How does the math or the timeline work out?

 

[dagamer]

]The 360 coming out event was first week of May 2005. [/B]MS was pounded pretty hard then for showing early game footage, (ex. Wall Guy). There was lots of talk then about the 360 being under-powered next to the PS3 which was showing lots of prerendered footage.

I don't think Microsoft will repeat that mistake and show anything half-baked. Last Gen they felt a need to get out the gate first. They don't seem to be taking that same approach.

Actually: http://www.ign.com/articles/2005/03/09/gdc-2005-xbox-and-xbox-2-coverage-2

The difference here is that the event you're thinking of was really just very public marketing with Frodo. As far as we can tell, Microsoft is not out at GDC in full force like Sony is. And look at all of the indie games Sony has announced.

 

[dobwal]

What does the math show for the clock speed of an 128-bit memory interface delivering over 100GB/s?


What time frame do you have for the alpha kits, given that Bonaire isn't on the market yet?

Math? I didn't use math. I just mis remembered the vgleaks article on durango's gpu. Sorry. LOL.

Given that dev kits don't require anywhere near the volume needed for retail or OEM, I am assuming Bonaire could have been delivered alot earlier.

 

[3dilettante]

Bonaire didn't need to physically exist up until maybe 6-12 months ago. When do you think alpha kits went out?

 

[dobwal]

Bonaire didn't need to physically exist up until maybe 6-12 months ago. When do you think alpha kits went out?

I am not assuming anything. I don't see Bonaire and naturally go thats a Durango derivative or Durango is a Bonaire derivative. But I don't naturally discount it either.

Given that I asked him whether he thinks Bonaire would make a good placeholder in the alpha/beta kits, timing is irrelevant (Im guessing sometime last year). The point isn't to convince him he is wrong, the point is to find out why he so against Bonaire being anywhere related Durango, when there are alot of coincidences in place while AMD is employing an unusual strategy for product release.

 

[3dilettante]

I am not assuming anything. I don't see Bonaire and naturally go thats a Durango derivative or Durango is a Bonaire derivative. But I don't naturally discount it either.

Given that I asked him whether he thinks Bonaire would make a good placeholder in the alpha/beta kits, timing is irrelevant (Im guessing sometime last year). The point isn't to convince him he is wrong, the point is to find out why he so against Bonaire being anywhere related Durango, when there are alot of coincidences in place while AMD is employing an unusual strategy for product release.

Coincidence is when two things that have nothing to do with each other happen to match up.
Bonaire and the rumored design for Durango come from the same technology pool from the same design company with apparently very similar performance targets.
Coming from the same pool of options and some of the same criteria means it's not coincidence.

However, coming from the same pool doesn't mean one begat the other. For one thing, that's sort of hard to do because they probably had periods of concurrent development, where neither design was set in stone and didn't actually exist at the time claimed.
A chip isn't a good predecessor or placeholder if it doesn't exist.

Their similarites almost certainly can't be coincidental, however, that doesn't mean either one controlled the development of the other. It's not necessary, and potentially problematic if a confidential contracted product leaks into another.

Let's note that the Sea Islands ISA document, which Bonaire is alleged to belong to, has features consistent with Orbis. I think Microsoft would be very interested in knowing if Durango wound up in Orbis. On the other hand, it's not clear that Bonaire has existed as long as Durango.

edit:
By way of analogy, the two designs are like siblings or cousins from the same set of ancestors. Assuming there isn't some kinkiness going on, a sibling shouldn't have undue influence on the genesis of a new member of the family, but there's still going to be a family resemblance.

Fixating on a few numbers such as FLOP counts or memory bus totals is not strong evidence because the common ancestry only has so many sane ways to combine.

 

[dobwal]

Coincidence is when two things that have nothing to do with each other happen to match up.
Bonaire and the rumored design for Durango come from the same technology pool from the same design company with apparently very similar performance targets.
Coming from the same pool of options and some of the same criteria means it's not coincidence.

However, coming from the same pool doesn't mean one begat the other. For one thing, that's sort of hard to do because they probably had periods of concurrent development, where neither design was set in stone and didn't actually exist at the time claimed.
A chip isn't a good predecessor or placeholder if it doesn't exist.

Their similarites almost certainly can't be coincidental, however, that doesn't mean either one controlled the development of the other. It's not necessary, and potentially problematic if a confidential contracted product leaks into another.

Let's note that the Sea Islands ISA document, which Bonaire is alleged to belong to, has features consistent with Orbis. I think Microsoft would be very interested in knowing if Durango wound up in Orbis. On the other hand, it's not clear that Bonaire has existed as long as Durango.

I don't disagree with anything you said. I call them coincidences because I can't prove that they related enough to say that its definite that Durango and Bonaire are something other than technologically related.

But in 12 months, given what we know, if someone confirms that some version of Durango's pre-launch dev kits contained Bonaire, I highly doubt we are going to naturally still believe what we know today as merely coincidence.

I guessing you're under assumption/know for a fact that either beta kits haven't release yet or have released and actually contained the durango processor. I don't know anything for a fact. So everything is up for discussion with me within the scope of the limited information that the consensus hold to be somewhat true.

"A chip isn't a good predecessor or placeholder if it doesn't exist."

LOL. What is that? Why are you latching onto "alpha" kit part as if its the key part of my argument. How about I go back and remove "alpha/beta" so that the comment can be construed as dev kit in general? I keep hearing about so many odd configurations of the dev kits that I haven't really formed any opinion or put any real thought into it in terms of schedule and configuration.

The whole gist of my argument is that "Wow Durango and Bonaire look alike...Hmmm." I can understand someone going maybe or probably not. I don't understand definitely or definitely not.

 

[SenjutsuSage]

I actually made a typo on the 7700 which I've corrected now. Don't get me wrong though, totally agree that Bonaire is the closest match in the AMD lineup for Durango from an architectural point of view, especially if Durango has 2 CU's disabled for yield. But I don't think there's anything particularly unique about Bonaire that must make us point to it and say "look, they've released Durango's GPU on the PC".

Yea, I see what you mean. Maybe if Bonaire had enough of anything that we could point to that was really different from previous GCN cards, and that was somehow also found to be present in Durango's GPU, perhaps then we could say with more certainty, but until then it's nothing more than a GPU that appears nearly identical based on architectural configuration, but considering all the different GCN card configurations, it still isn't necessarily enough to say that one is based on the other. They could still very easily turn out to be two very distinct GCN parts that share no relation other than they are identical looking GCN parts.

 

[Silent_Buddha]

I actually made a typo on the 7700 which I've corrected now. Don't get me wrong though, totally agree that Bonaire is the closest match in the AMD lineup for Durango from an architectural point of view, especially if Durango has 2 CU's disabled for yield. But I don't think there's anything particularly unique about Bonaire that must make us point to it and say "look, they've released Durango's GPU on the PC".

The basic things about Bonaire that pose a potentially closer link to Durango than say something based off of Cape Verde is the things that were added purely to facilitate HSA. CU counts, flops, etc. as had been mentioned are all pretty much shared with any GCN based part.

But that would also be likely shared with whatever the graphics core contains in the upcoming PC APUs.

In that sense and that sense only, I feel it has more in common with Bonaire than with Cape Verde. And, of course, all 3 share much more than that in common.

And as well, nothing says that those same additions for HSA don't also exist in the Orbis GPU core.

Regards,
SB

 

[Proelite]

Assuming that the Durango SOC (no ram, kinect, etc) uses 100 watt at peak. What are we looking at?