Xbox One (Durango) Technical hardware investigation

[SenjutsuSage]

Assuming that the Durango SOC (no ram, kinect, etc) uses 100 watt at peak. What are we looking at?

Maybe I'm reading this wrong, but for 100, I would expect 16 CUs.

 

[Rangers]

Maybe I'm reading this wrong, but for 100, I would expect 16 CUs.

well, that much recently discussed bonaire is 14 cu's and 85 watts. that only leaves 15 for the cpu (which might not be that far off??)

but it's also clocked at 1000. at 800 more could be possible.

 

[DuckThor Evil]

Wouldn't Bonaire make a good gpu placeholder in the alpha/beta 720 dev kit until the Durango chip or chips are ready? The final dev kits for the 360 prior to launch didn't arrive until 1 or 2 months before launch last gen. And AMD doesn't make an 8 cpu core apu with 12 CUs so whatever shows up in the devs kit prior to Durango should be a plain cpu-gpu setup.

This time it doesn't seem like they are rushing as much. I wouldn't be surprised if the current dev kits already has the Durango APU, but that's just speculation. A Downclocked 7850 would work just as well for the dev kits.

You could be very much right that Bonaire represents a good short term solution to plug in the gap between a 7770 and a 7850 until the second half of this year and its similarities to Durango is coincidence. But unless I am mistaken this strategy is something new for AMD or at least fairly uncommon. When has AMD ever released a next gen part with a current gen designation? Why fast forward the release of just one design to provide what will probably be less than a 6 month stop gap. Is AMD taking a beating on its midrange offerings? If so, then why only one part why not several and release a slew of low/midrange 8000 series part, which AMD has done before?

AMDs current lineup is very competitive in price/performance to nVidia's offerings, but they did have a large gap between 7770 and 7850, so filling that gap first makes sense. Perhaps Bonaire isn't fast forwarded, but the others postponed. It's been 15 months since the 7970 was unveiled. Calling it a next gen part is also a stronger word than what the chip warrants, which is probably why AMD isn't calling it next gen either, but slotted it as a 7000-series card. I'm guessing it will be rebranded as a 8770 though.

I understand your reservation as the appearance of a similar part doesn't automatically mean that the gpu is Durango related. But it is odd for this chip to show in the way it has. AMD could have used a 7770 with higher clocks and faster memory to produce a 7790.

AMD most definitely could not have used a 7770 and get similar performance as Bonaire out of it, not even close. They would have needed to up the clock to 1400Mhz to get the same texturing and shading performance and that is not doable. 7790 with 14CUs is a large step over 7770 with 10CUs, but that performance advantage melts completely when you disable 2CUs and clock it at 800Mhz.

This pjbliverpools quote sums up my thoughts pretty good.

Don't get me wrong though, totally agree that Bonaire is the closest match in the AMD lineup for Durango from an architectural point of view, especially if Durango has 2 CU's disabled for yield. But I don't think there's anything particularly unique about Bonaire that must make us point to it and say "look, they've released Durango's GPU on the PC.

Vgleaks had already highlighted that Durangos GPU will see some things borrowed from Pitcairn instead of Cape Verde like the improved geometry performance, so Bonaire also having the same features as Pitcairn is not really anything to make a fuss about.

 

[Rangers]

Vgleaks had already highlighted that Durangos GPU will see some things borrowed from Pitcairn instead of Cape Verde like the improved geometry performance, so Bonaire also having the same features as Pitcairn is not really anything to make a fuss about.

I love how a lot of people seem to have switched from "Vgleaks is garbage useless crap get that outta here until it's announced by sony/ms it's worthless" to "VGleaks word is gold about Durango specs"

It's probably not even the same people, just the ones who post have changed from one to the other.

for the record, i've always put a lot of stock in vgleaks (it usually just corroborates what was already being bandied about a few weeks before by certain folks in the know anyway)

 

[DuckThor Evil]

They were pretty much spot on with PS4 apart from the amount of memory which is a bit different than a last minute change to an APU. so I'll believe them on Durango unless proven wrong. Also I've never said their info was garbage.

 

[GrimThorne]

But it's also not good for discussion if just ONE source is the de facto authority on everything.

As I recall there were multiple sources on Xenos/Xenon, and because of that there was more than one perspective. It provided for broader discussions than what we're witnessing right now here at B3D and other forums. I'm not really questioning their credibility, but right now everything is "the buck stops with VGleaks"

How did that happen? How did they become the unquestionable authority on everything? Is it wise for us to place this much confidence in them? Shouldn't we be looking for other sources? And why isn't Microsoft's legal dept trying to stomp the hell out of them? Aren't the documents they've released to the public stolen?

Or maybe Microsoft appreciates the distraction from what they're really planning?

 

[Betanumerical]

But it's also not good for discussion if just ONE source is the de facto authority on everything.

As I recall there were multiple sources on Xenos/Xenon, and because of that there was more than one perspective. It provided for broader discussions than what we're witnessing right now here at B3D and other forums. I'm not really questioning their credibility, but right now everything is "the buck stops with VGleaks"

How did that happen? How did they become the unquestionable authority on everything? Is it wise for us to place this much confidence in them? Shouldn't we be looking for other sources? And why isn't Microsoft's legal dept trying to stomp the hell out of them? Aren't the documents they've released to the public stolen?

Or maybe Microsoft appreciates the distraction from what they're really planning?

There has been more then just vgleaks writing articles and getting formation (EDGE, and someone else). Also microsoft does not have any recourse to take down information that vgleaks has created themselves even if it is based off stolen documents, or documents given to them, it is my understanding that in the eyes of the law vgleaks is not breaking any laws at all.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

How did that happen? How did they become the unquestionable authority on everything? Is it wise for us to place this much confidence in them? Shouldn't we be looking for other sources? And why isn't Microsoft's legal dept trying to stomp the hell out of them? Aren't the documents they've released to the public stolen?

Disseminating information isn't a crime. The only law stopping leaks is contract law on NDAs, where those found leaking information can be punished (sacked and effectively banned from the industry I believe. Dunno if there are greater reprimands like fiscal penalties). If someone gives me info, I'm free to pass it on. That's true of all information except that covered by official secrets acts or that illegally obtained by spying, so if I get info on you by a snoop bugging your phone, you could block me spreading that info I believe.

Otherwise, rumours are rumours. Word gets out (even government info like Wikileaks). As a company you can't really stop it. You can try and pressure a media outlet to withhold info, but info isn't IP that can be stopped via copyright laws. I guess logos can be, but if you hit a website with a cease and desist order, the internet will already have the image and they'll know that it's true because it's blocked. So instead you do nothing and leave the uncertainty of whether it's valid or fake.

Or maybe Microsoft appreciates the distraction from what they're really planning?

That's rather unlikely thinking. Companies don't comment on rumour and speculation. It's equivalent to never giving in to terrorist demands. If they ever could be goaded into saying something, media could use rumour and speculation to extract real information. Ergo PR is controlled by the company. They'll release what they want to release when they want to release it. Regardless of whatever rumours float around, the moment the real information is released, that info becomes immaterial, so don't get goaded into saying to the public now, "we have always on by design but that doesn't mean you need an internet connection to play game..." when you can say that when you're ready with your whole message and set all those rumours to rest.

 

[bkilian]

There has been more then just vgleaks writing articles and getting formation (EDGE, and someone else). Also microsoft does not have any recourse to take down information that vgleaks has created themselves even if it is based off stolen documents, or documents given to them, it is my understanding that in the eyes of the law vgleaks is not breaking any laws at all.

They are not creating the documents, they are just cut and pasting from someone else's document, if that entity cared enough, they could use a DMCA takedown, but that would legitimize vgleaks.

 

[Cyan]

No, I knew quite well what was in the unannounced product I was working on. I had access to all the documentation, even though I didn't read all of it. Things like form factor, silicon node process, marketing plans and such were not important for me to know, since I was concerned mainly with how it performs and writing code for it, so I never tried to find that stuff out.

And if you add 6 CUs to Durango, you get the same TFLOPS as PS4. OMG! Hate to tell you this, but every GCN card at the same clock rate and with the same number of CUs will have the same number of TFLOPS. Probably GCN1.1 and GCN2 too, unless they change the number of threads per CU. TFLOPS does not tell you much else about the card other than how many adds and multiplies it can do, which is pretty much set by the number of CUs and clock speed. It doesn't tell you about the memory subsystem, it doesn't tell you about the amount of cache, it doesn't tell you about the number of ROPS it has, or how many planes it can write to, or how it's pipelined, or it's performance with branch heavy code, or pretty much anything.

My guess is that you are still under NDA then? Thus I can see now why you don't provide us with more technical information, not to break it, so we can't snag a quick lil peek from you?

I'd love to, too much silence surrounding the launch of the console. I am not going to ask you about the other chips in the console then, because it'd be fruitless. But audio is something I love, I have even built "some things" around audio, and if you could share it would be really, really interesting.

Disseminating information isn't a crime. The only law stopping leaks is contract law on NDAs, where those found leaking information can be punished (sacked and effectively banned from the industry I believe. Dunno if there are greater reprimands like fiscal penalties).

I guess the only real way to be allowed around such things is if you have something like a "NDA Pass". :smile:

Looks like sharing under NDA has been made much worse, while stealing information has not. Odd if you ask me. Apparently if you share in a small forum you can be banned, or jailed.... when if VGLeaks share something and everyone and their grandmother is going to know what is inside a console nothing happens. This should not be the case.

They should be quiet and keeping their info to themselves, not just looking for clicks.

Instead, ...everything , every detail, every potential issue, ....out in the open. Oh, the horror.

I don't trust VGLeaks at all, so....

 

[bkilian]

My guess is that you are still under NDA then? Thus I can see now why you don't provide us with more technical information, not to break it, so we can't snag a quick lil peek from you?

I'd love to, too much silence surrounding the launch of the console. I am not going to ask you about the other chips in the console then, because it'd be fruitless. But audio is something I love, I have even built "some things" around audio, and if you could share it would be really, really interesting.

Indeed, the Microsoft NDA does not have an expiration date. It's kinda hilarious interviewing for a new job and having to answer "I can't tell you" when they ask what you've been doing the last two years.

 

[Scott_Arm]

Indeed, the Microsoft NDA does not have an expiration date. It's kinda hilarious interviewing for a new job and having to answer "I can't tell you" when they ask what you've been doing the last two years.

The next time I do a job interview, I'm going to just lie and say I'm under NDA and can't talk about what I was doing. They're unlikely to seek clarification, and they'd hopefully be imagining some really cool stuff relative to what I actually do.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

Looks like sharing under NDA has been made much worse, while stealing information has not. Odd if you ask me. Apparently if you share in a small forum you can be banned, or jailed....

If you're under NDA, doesn't matter what method you share the info on. And doing it yourself, you run a much higher risk of getting caught. If you give the info to someone else to share on the internet, no-one has any power over them to grass you up.

Indeed, the Microsoft NDA does not have an expiration date. It's kinda hilarious interviewing for a new job and having to answer "I can't tell you" when they ask what you've been doing the last two years.

"I could tell you, but I'd have to kill you." Try that one next time.

 

[(((interference)))]

Vgleaks are legit because they have the actual specs and are posting from Xbox Advanced Technology Group whitepapers that were given to devs.

 

[dobwal]

Yeah I believe the point he's (liquid boy) making is that MS has been investing heavily on the software side of the rendering pipeline, and feel the advancements they've made are significant enough to patent them (sounds like he agrees). Durango is the hardware thats purpose built to plug into all these advancements and as a whole software/hardware system cannot be compared to what we know or expect from the PC space in terms of IQ or performance.

Further, I'm still not clear on how developers can judge the performance of Durango without having final hardware, given how custom it appears. Are all these developer comments based simply on equivalent specs of PC counterparts + the general "in a closed box system" multiplier?

Yeah I think MS along with others are pouring considerable investments into software development for heterogeneous design and parallel programming.

We are talking a whole new programming model that isn't about Durango but the whole MS ecosystem. The Xbox might end being the test run for MS's plan to make parallel programming easier. I've mucking around on Microsoft research and ran across at least 3 different OS all targeted to make parallel programming on heterogeneous designs more efficient.

 

[xJumPeRJumPzZ]

Vgleaks are legit because they have the actual specs and are posting from Xbox Technology Group whitepapers that were given to devs.

This are not actual or recent. This Specs and docs are from early 2012.

 

[(((interference)))]

This are not actual or recent. This Specs and docs are from early 2012.

Sigh, again - they are not from early 2012. The beta devkits that went out in Dec 12 have the same specs as vgleaks.

 

[Proelite]

Sigh, again - they are not from early 2012. The beta devkits that went out in Dec 12 have the same specs as vgleaks.

Where did you get this from?

 

[(((interference)))]

Where did you get this from?

1. DaE posted it and it was picked up by other news outlets
2. I have my own sources that corroborate the approximate timeframe

 

[Rangers]

DaE has said the Durango specs people have are old, and come from the same European source. He said this as recently as March 20.

https://twitter.com/DJoe1899/status/314369969154584576

but he also said this today

https://twitter.com/RogueWave09/status/316946699505524736

so i dont even know what he's saying.