Betanumerical
Veteran
In that case the Durango GPU is not Bonaire as it only has 2 ACE's.
Xbox One (Durango) Technical hardware investigation
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In that case the Durango GPU is not Bonaire as it only has 2 ACE's.
SenjutsuSage
Newcomer
I guess we can't be certain either way, but I personally believe the info they have is info that originates from much, much earlier, but they simply received it late last year/early this year and are passing it off as much more recent than it truly is.
That said, this doesn't in anyway mean the info they have isn't 100% accurate, but I've never believed it to be as recent as they suggest, because all this info that they've been drip feeding is all the same information that was present in the much earlier leaked documents, is it not?
Are we sure they are referring to more ACEs, or are they referring to an internal change at a lower level inside the GPUs architecture, because they never quite say. Does support for a larger number of compute work queues automatically suggest more ACEs? If it does, then clearly I'm ignorant of the meaning, and thus wrong.
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Did I miss where it was said how many ACE's Durango's GPU had?
(((interference)))
Veteran
That's because not even some Sony internal studios knew of the changes until the launch event.
Sigh - for the last time, it's not very old information.
The vgleaks specs are what's in the beta kits that went out at the end of last year.
....
For what it's worth, I was asking Richard whether he's heard anything about revised clocks etc - and he hasn't.
He thinks it's all 'wishful thinking from GAF' and to keep in mind that 'we’re dealing with one of the biggest APUs ever made – the clocks are low for a reason.'
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SenjutsuSage
Newcomer
Ahh, okay, so it's based on what's inside the beta kits. Didn't realize that was the case.
(((interference)))
Veteran
Not exactly, the specs which were given to devs in early 2012 (which is what vgleaks has been posting from) are current as of the beta kits that went out in Dec 2012.
Silent_Buddha
Legend
The problem with that, however, is that if MS even had an idea of how powerful PS4 was going to be, they'd also know that it was going to have a higher BOM as PS4 is also basically including a "Kinect" in their BOM with a camera bar and beefed up controller in every box along with the beefier hardware and GDDR5 memory.
Hence, Kinect being in the box doesn't influence Microsoft's choice of hardware in comparison to PS4 whether they knew what was going on with PS4 or not. It only factors into their own BOM target in isolation. IE - it didn't matter one bit what Sony were doing.
It's not like they were sitting there thinking they would be hitting the same BOM as PS4, but because of Kinect they'd have to skimp on hardware to meet the same BOM as PS4.
Microsoft basically had an internal BOM target they wanted to hit, irrespective of whatever Sony were doing. Then designed around that. Potentially incurring higher R&D investment due to that, but as mentioned a lower total investment (R&D + lifetime manufacturing) over the life of the console.
Regards,
SB
It looks like vgaleaks is leaking from the XDK doc from late 2012, which comes with the beta kits.
(((interference)))
Veteran
I don't think the PS camera bar is going to be as expensive as Kinect.
Regardless, they probably did not know Sony were going to include a camera in each box, or going for 8GB of GDDR5 etc.
So while, yes, currently Sony's BOM is much higher than MS's, the point is that MS management predicted that if Sony were going for a similar (or more expensive) BOM to them, they'd have the more powerful console as MS knew they'd have to dedicate a substantial portion of their BOM to Kinect.
But yes, they probably had their own BOM target in mind (they have one if the leaked roadmap) and were working to that.
I'm just saying they knew Sony was going to have a more powerful machine as they had to include Kinect in the price and didn't want to subsidise a high BOM that could give them power+Kinect.
(((interference)))
Veteran
That's possible, they probably have both sets of docs.
Irrespective, what he said is still reasonable. Gem consoles tend to aim for the same price points, which ties their BOMs together. MS may or may not have known if Sony was including a camera, but they had to work on the assumption that the MS console would be weaker than the PS4 due to Kinect costs. That's the point he is trying to make.
Silent_Buddha
Legend
1.79TF * .8 (800Mhz) *12/14 (number of CUs)= 1.23TF
Surely just coincidence.
Hehe, that is a pretty big coincidence when laid out like that.
Perhaps it's not so much that the Durango GPU is based off of Bonaire, but that the Bonaire GPU is based off of the Durango GPU. Then it makes a bit more sense, as AMD were looking for a product to fill the space between the 7770 and 7850 2 GB. Basically to fill the space that the 7850 1 GB would be vacating due to memory manufacturer's stopping production of the low density memory chips it was using.
If you then look at the features that were added to Bonaire versus Cape Verde, things start to fall into place. Better support for HSA features. 2x ACEs as well as 2x primitives per clock to ensure it wouldn't be at a disadvantage versus the 7850 1 GB. It may not generally be as fast as the 7850, but it ends up filling that price gap quite well.
Even if you think about it as just a really beefed up (more CU's etc.) than what is going to go into Kabini and Temash (the PC Jaguar based parts), it still indicates this is likely more similar to what is in Durango than something based on Cape Verde.
Now before too many people get excited. It's still not going to improve performance much over Cape Verde for the majority of graphical workloads unless those 2 primitives/clock come into play.
And as always, since people have a tendency to jump on anyone just throwing out idle speculation, this is PURELY SPECULATION.
It may be it is more similar to Bonaire, or it may be more similar to Cape Verde, or it may bear no similarities to either and its entirely custom. Though that last is very unlikely. There is one other bit that seems fairly interesting. Dave mentioned in the GPU architecture thread that a 192 bit bus was originally planned for Bonaire but that he championed the 128 bit that it eventually used. I wonder how long ago that was in the development stage. As it seems to imply that bus width is perhaps easier to change than otherwise thought. Then again if this was over a year ago then yeah, it's as hard as thought. But I have to wonder just how long Bonaire was in development.
Regards,
SB
SenjutsuSage
Newcomer
Oh okay, so the beta dev kits more or less reinforced the specs given to devs in early 2012. Thanks for the clarification. So, unless there is some pretty notable difference between the beta kits and final hardware (wonder what Microsoft's track record is on hardware differences going from beta or near final hardware to final hardware), the specs given to us are what we are going to see.
Microsoft had a firmer idea, it seems, of what they wanted in their box much sooner this time around. For example, majornelson once said on his podcast that Epic convinced Microsoft to add another 256MB of RAM to the 360, which led to 512MB in final 360 hardware instead of 256MB.
Silent_Buddha
Legend
In which case they were unlikely to know how powerful the PS4 was going to be or even what its BOM was going to be.
Considering how successful Kinect was versus the Move controller, it's quite likely that Microsoft were predicting Sony would try some sort of camera + voice control system similar to Kinect.
Likewise, if Sony wants Move controls to be a "natural fit" for game development something would have to be done to allow for something similar to Move controls out of the box. So, I doubt Microsoft were at all surprised at the inclusion of a Camera system with a Mic array and a controller modified with a light source that the camera system could track.
In fact, I'd call the Microsoft Durango pre-production people to be completely incompetent if they did not expect Sony to include a Camera and either a reworked controller or Move controller with every PS4.
Basically for the same reasons that Microsoft has to have a Kinect in every box, Sony has to have a camera system + something approximating Move controls in every box. To not include them would mean motions controls would fail for that respective console right off the bat as the game developers would then have no incentive to even think about using them.
Regards,
SB
SenjutsuSage
Newcomer
Hmm, why champion a 128-bit bus over a 192-bit bus? I wonder what the reasoning was. I'd have to search out the thread.
nvm, found it.
nvm, found it.
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Ok. Let me put it this way: I am certain that Xbox management were prepared for the possibility the PS4 might be more powerful than the 720, and, in fact, expected it.
Thank you.
geez can we please now stop acting like MS was scared into a corner last month and they are flat footed?
That's what many of us have been trying to say and while others are speculating the possibility of MS improving leaked specs. can we just agree that they were/are prepared to go forward as is, knowing PS4 would be about what it is and they STILL have a plan to be successful.
It's not the attempts at disproving the possibility that they might change that is annoying, it is the assumption that MS are a bunch of fools rather than engineers with a PLAN that does not need to be changed.
Whether MS are reacting to Sony's design or not is pretty immaterial to the discussion. Instead of trying to guess the hardware based on business strategies, let's just stick to investigating realistic hardware options (certain performance/price/TDP balances) and considering rumours.
(((interference)))
Veteran
Actually Shifty, I beg to differ.
For people discussing whether or not MS will increase the clocks etc. MS's impetus for doing so will obviously be related to whether or not they were expecting PS4 to be more powerful and whether they have already taken that into account in their business strategy.
So if this thread is about what hardware will most likely be in the final box, it is important to know what MS were thinking when they designed it.
For people discussing whether or not MS will increase the clocks etc. MS's impetus for doing so will obviously be related to whether or not they were expecting PS4 to be more powerful and whether they have already taken that into account in their business strategy.
So if this thread is about what hardware will most likely be in the final box, it is important to know what MS were thinking when they designed it.
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