Formula 1 - 2012 Season

IMO - bring back re-fueling.

The tyres are only what they are, because with the re-fueling ban - adding two tyres sets (with a very narrow operating window) is the only way to bring back some of the strategic element that refueling featured.

If you have only one set, then the problem is that the starting order more or less dictates the finishing order of the race.

IMO - either bring back refueling or give a higher performance differential between the two tyre types and don't force teams to use both. Then you might have teams gambling on a more endurance type race where they will use the harder compound with less stops and other drivers that have a more agressive style and can overtake to use a more agressive strategy. The only problem with this, is that with the current fuel loads and 160kg+ of weight - the performance differential between tyres will always be difficult to gauge to encourage the kind of racing that came more naturally with re-fueling.
 
Did. Shocking stuff.


It's also available on youtube btw, for those who can't use the iplayer.

IMO - bring back re-fueling.

The tyres are only what they are, because with the re-fueling ban - adding two tyres sets (with a very narrow operating window) is the only way to bring back some of the strategic element that refueling featured.

If you have only one set, then the problem is that the starting order more or less dictates the finishing order of the race.

IMO - either bring back refueling or give a higher performance differential between the two tyre types and don't force teams to use both. Then you might have teams gambling on a more endurance type race where they will use the harder compound with less stops and other drivers that have a more agressive style and can overtake to use a more agressive strategy. The only problem with this, is that with the current fuel loads and 160kg+ of weight - the performance differential between tyres will always be difficult to gauge to encourage the kind of racing that came more naturally with re-fueling.


No re-fueling please. Really it's not going to improve anything and we'll just go back to short sprints with teams overtaking in the pits. No, banning re-fueling and the new pirelli tyres are the best things to happen to F1 in years. Now there is a lot more tactics involved and drivers also need to be a lot smarter.

Sure we can go back to refuelling and bridgestone days but thats not gonna do any good to the racing. The outright fastest car will always win again. Not what we want I think. Sure, current racing might be a little bit artificial at times but it produces as much better show. Teams need good strategy, need to build a car that's not only fast, but also well balanced and easy on it tyres and drivers need to play their cards right and keep their cool. Attacking when they can and hold back to save their tyres when they can't.

DRS is the only thing that still bothers me a little bit. But as long as they get the DRS zones right I think it actually works pretty good. Most of the times DRS manages to get drivers with a fundamentally faster car back in a position more in line with car performance even after mistakes. Often you see drivers pulling away after a DRS overtake and for equally performing cars DRS most of the time isn't just a free pass.
 
No re-fueling please. Really it's not going to improve anything and we'll just go back to short sprints with teams overtaking in the pits. No, banning re-fueling and the new pirelli tyres are the best things to happen to F1 in years. Now there is a lot more tactics involved and drivers also need to be a lot smarter.

Agreed. Schumacher will have to learn to race rather than use a relationship with a tyre manufacturer to his advantage. I think there was a story about Jos Verstappen also claiming Schumacher was driving a different car to him back in the Benetton Briatore days.

Schumacher and Ferrari had a special relationship with Bridgestone and would get a different derivative tyre that performed better than what the other teams got.

Can you tell that I love Schumi? Also get some specs son, shunting into the back of a braking car almost always loses you your no claims bonus don't you know? :devilish:
 
No re-fueling please. Really it's not going to improve anything and we'll just go back to short sprints with teams overtaking in the pits. No, banning re-fueling and the new pirelli tyres are the best things to happen to F1 in years. Now there is a lot more tactics involved and drivers also need to be a lot smarter.

And overtaking in the pits during re-fueling was so much different, then drivers using the 'under-cut' now, exploiting the characteristics of the Pirelli tyres to get past their opponents? Not really. The only reason why we are seeing more "natural" overtakes now is because of DRS (which has nothing to do with the refueling-ban and IMO isn't really a 'natural' overtake) and because the tyres are so artificially sensitive, that drivers and teams are having trouble finding the perfect set-up and the tyre wear is a bit of a lottery. That the tyres reach a cliff and lose grip, helps to enhance this.

If we discount DRS and the artificially sensitive tyres - we had a lot more real overtakes during the refueling period - because you always had some of the midfield teams (like e.g. Sauber) attempt long stints with heavier fuel loads. Drivers running on a more agressive strategy always needed to rely on race-craft to get past these opponents to make their strategy work - pitting early due to one of these would always compromise their strategy. Even if we were to have refueling back - there's no reason to go back to bridgestone tyres or ban DRS (which is a result of the cars being so aero dependant now days).

The problem I see with artificial sensitive tyres like these are that you are effectively dumbing down the sport and enhancing the spectacle. Sure it's entertaining, but how "real" is it, if finding the right set-up for these tyres is down to a lot of luck, irrespective who has got the best driver or the best car on the grid? Why is it a lot of luck? Because the tyres are so narrow in their operating window that it is temperature, track, driver and car dependant. Temperature and track change with every event, so it's extremely difficult to find a setup that works - which is why we are now seeing races where a new team dominates (Mercedes, Sauber, Lotus, Williams) or falls.

The other issue I have with the re-fueling ban and the Pirellis is that hyper sensitive tyres and 160+ kg of weight at the start of a race don't mix well. By the time the cars become light enough for the drivers to really start pushing the cars and RACE - they are towards the end of the race, either already conserving tyres (to get to the finish line) and thus can't really drive too agressive in fear to break the tyres or the leader is effectively so far ahead that there is no race.

Even if teams get a handle of the tyres - you still are not going to change that it will remain a gamble of how agressive you can drive (to get past your opponents) but risk damaging your tyres - especially when you still have a lot of fuel and the loads on the tyres are more extreme.

With the current situation - IMO - we aren't all that far away from having races with artificial rain. Sure - it enhances the spectacle and will lead to more people watching the sport - and people that have kept watching the sport since 20 years and are interested in the technical aspects will find themselves in the minority wishing for more real racing.

IMO - the only way to make the sport more attractive and keep the spectacle is make them less aero dependant (no more DRS necessary), a real budget cap that works and gives a more level playing field for most teams, challenging tyres and rules that give both agressive and smooth drivers the opportunity to make their strategy work.

But now - how good and real is the racing really, if it is not the best car/driver that dictates who is winning, but the tyre?


PS: No hard feelings by the way - but I do think this topic deserves a constructive discussion - and Schumachers criticism (irregardless of what his motivations are for voicing them - he is not the only driver to think that) highlights some of it what I think is wrong. Although I don't often agree with Niki Lauda - he too is very vocal about the current situation on RTL (and he does have a tendency to talk without thinking too much of consequences).
 
I don't find DRS that bad but it does greatly favour cars with greater straight line speed. On the weekend we saw some DRS moves there the passing car was multiple car lengths infront by the end of the straight. However at the end of the race DRS wasn't enough for Alonso to pass Maldonado even though he was quite a bit less than 1 second behind (additional example Webber stuck behind Hulkenburg for 3/4 of the race despite being in an overall faster car).

DRS obviously makes overtaking someone on old worn out tires by someone with new tires quite easy. I wonder if we didn't have DRS if more overtakes would be done elsewhere on the track in that situation.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
DRS is the single best thing to happen to F1 in 20 years. I never want to see another Trulli train. When commentators start getting worked up over pit overtakings/strategy, you know something is wrong.

On the non-straights, the trailing cars experience less aerodynamical grip because of wake turbulence. The only way to make overtaking easier here is to improve mechanical grip relative to aerodynamical grip. Since we already have very fat slicks on the cars, that basically means reducing aerodynamical grip, - or re-introducing ground effect aero which doesn't suffer as much from wake turbulence. The latter is highly unlikely though.

Cheers
 
IMO - the only way to make the sport more attractive and keep the spectacle is make them less aero dependant

Ladies and gentlemen give that man a cigar.
Ive been saying this for years in fact get rid of wings all together
 
Yes but what are the effects of that and will the series you end up with still be F1? Sure you can cut off the wings, halve engine power in the process because of safety (you don't have anything to keep the car on the track anymore) end up with what basically is a carbon fibre version of a 1960's F1 car. But doing so you will lose everything F1 is about. Acceleration, braking and most of all, extreme cornering speeds.

Modern F1 needs aerodynamics so you can't get rid of the wings unless you give something back in return which would, as Gubbi mentioned, ground effect. But that would raise safety concerns.
 
DRS is the single best thing to happen to F1 in 20 years. I never want to see another Trulli train. When commentators start getting worked up over pit overtakings/strategy, you know something is wrong.
One of my worries for DRS is that it could potentially end up in the situation of two similarly paced cars alternating positions lap after another - this happening would clearly show its artifice. Fortunatly that hasn't occured at all, due to whatever circumstances, and overall has clearly shown to be of benefit.
 
I see no reason why F1 needs wings yes cornering speed would be reduced so what

Fundamentally, what is the essential point of F1?

To be the fastest? To be the pinnacle of technology? To prove the best spectacle, however that is measured?
 
High speed cornering is imo at the core of what Formula 1 is.

The balance between spectacle and sport is a hard one, but imo the current situation is not that bad. I agree there is a risk with the DSR like Dave mentioned, but so far it has worked pretty well. The races during last and this season has been markedly more interesting than most races during the previous seasons.
 
So any truth that the 'faster than light' reading at cern was just Räikkönen going for a sunday drive
 
Ferrari's really nailed their pit stops this season. This is a thing of beauty.
mJcSj.gif
 
One of my worries for DRS is that it could potentially end up in the situation of two similarly paced cars alternating positions lap after another - this happening would clearly show its artifice. Fortunatly that hasn't occured at all, due to whatever circumstances, and overall has clearly shown to be of benefit.

During last race Martin Brundle shared some insight overheard from one of racing engineers that to successfully overtake in DRS zone car has to be around 1 second per lap quicker than opponent you are trying to overtake.
Granted, some teams are better suited for DRS like Mercedes and maybe it should be easier for them, but still.
Basically DRS zones are usually on longest straights which are initiated by slow to mid speed corners. If your car works well in corners, usually suffers in straight line speed (RedBull). This lets you get close to car you follow just before DRS activation zone but then usually faster in straight line car can use KERS to defend.
If we reverse roles and use Mercedes as an example, they loose a lot of ground to the car they follow in slow corners prior to DRS zone and usually are too far away (0.8s+) to make the move stick at the end of straight.

So therefore DRS really isn't a free pass to overtaking. Especially when we have KERS which can be used to strategically defend from DRS. This creates opportunities to overtake in unusual places by the chasing driver who saves his KERS charge and forces opponent to use all when defending from DRS.

In the end all this makes DRS + KERS very good addition to F1. Current tyres I'm not convinced though!
 
top 4 times from P3

Code:
[B]Pos    Driver            Team/Car        Time        Gap    Laps
[/B]1.    Nico Rosberg        Mercedes        1m15.159s                 25
2.    Felipe Massa        Ferrari            1m15.197s    + 0.038s 21
3.    Sebastian Vettel    Red Bull-Renault    1m15.209s    + 0.050s 20
4.    Fernando Alonso        Ferrari            1m15.210s    + 0.051s 20
 
Back
Top