Sony's NeoGeo Pocket's (PSP2/Vita) business/non technical ramifications talk

[ShadowRunner]

I think everyone is looking at it the wrong way. NGP differeniates itself because it is the only handheld device that CAN offer console games without comprimise. This its selling point not a negative. Im not sure there is any evidence to sugest it is a negative point like some people seem to think.

I can see groups of kids sitting around playin CoD with eachother everyday during their lunch hours at school. Or maybe some Co-op Uncharted. Or just finish of a few missions in GTA. This to me is what a portable console should offer. Angry birds and other such games can stay on the phones, its not like the portable consoles can replace the need for a phone so they are much better of co-existing with the phone market rather than trying to offer the same sort of experiences, whats the point in carrying a second device that offers the same things you have on your phone already.

 

[RudeCurve]

people say they don't want the console games on a handheld, then when you point out that NGP will also have the pick up & play games that people say should be on handhelds it doesn't matter because you can play them on other platforms? lol

So instead of pulling my phone out to play Cut the Rope or Angry Birds or Fragger while waiting for my food to be served at the local restaurant, I instead should've purchased a NGP to carry along side my phone in a backpack to the restaurant?

I think everyone is looking at it the wrong way. NGP differeniates itself because it is the only handheld device that CAN offer console games without comprimise. This its selling point not a negative. Im not sure there is any evidence to sugest it is a negative point like some people seem to think.

The size of the NGP is fact not fiction.

 

[ShadowRunner]

The size of the NGP is fact not fiction.

Im not sure what you mean with that in reference to my comment.

Anyhow i dont think any portable console will be something you will be carrying around in your pocket regardless. DS is hugely successful yet i dont see anyone carrying one around, along with there phone, one in each pocket.

Do we have any figures on how current portables are actually used? As far as ive seen most gaming on portable consoles takes place at home. I think people just like to game while sitting with family (keeping one eye on tv and involved with the banter ect.) instead of having to be cooped up alone in a seperate room. Thats my experience of portable consoles anyhow and from what ive seen its quite a common usage scenario.

 

[Toaddio]

The concern that the NGP unique features may not be as apparent or as easily communicated to the consumer from the package is something I have also expressed in these very forums and the consumer may need to have first hand experience with the product to notice. This is mostly marketing related but that is irrelevant to what it can actually offer.

Exactly. And with Sony's incredibly deft marketing the NGP should take over the world within three weeks of its release.

 

[patsu]

The concern that the NGP unique features may not be as apparent or as easily communicated to the consumer from the package is something I have also expressed in these very forums and the consumer may need to have first hand experience with the product to notice. This is mostly marketing related but that is irrelevant to what it can actually offer.

3DS is still a DS slapped with 3D. So far there is no title announced that makes use of the 3D screen to differentiate gameplay and they didnt communicate/explain during any of its announcements how 3D will change gameplay experience.

It is always about the game design regardless of platform and both the NGP and the 3DS have the right foundations for that and they arent much different in that respect.

I believe Nintendo already announced some 3DS games that take advantage of the 3D display. Auto-stereoscopic display is easily understood by consumers. They showed the effect during the announcements. OTOH, more power and dual sticks are (better) understood by core gamers.

By the first I was referring to the argument that the NGP doesnt have much to differentiate itself from PS3/console like experiences and traditional gaming, but you havent exactly supported this with arguements. You victimize it for that but the hardware design is not a problem. It has the right hardware,
Its only up to the developers from there on to design the games that will take advantage of it appropriately. You cant argue with the fact that this is game design dependent. Why dont you just wait and see what developers will do instead?

Yes, I am waiting. There is no rush to get into NGP at the moment.

Regarding your argument that the NGP should differentiate from the core and casuals, I am not sure it makes sense. Its impossible to differentiate from both when everyone targets those two segments and these are the two segments that consist 100% of the market. There is no other else left anyways. They dont have to differentiate from those two. These will always be the targeted segments. The difference is that they will have to differentiate for those segments by enriching the experience offered to them. The 3DS and the NGP are in the same situation (if we ignore past success carried to the present and price differences) and both will face the same challenges from the iOS (and Android) game competition which is everyday devices that happen to play games and at cheap prices. Hardware adoption for the latter is seamless and is the biggest advantage that these devices have compared to gaming dedicated devices. Who doesnt need a phone these days?

They have to differentiate from both because there is an overlap between NGP, cellphone gaming and home console gaming. The lines will continue to blur as cellphones and pads gain power, and more people play social games. For now, NGP seems to be aimed at the core gamers who wants mobility, privacy or convenience of a separate screen. The dual sticks and leading computing power appeal to them.

 

[patsu]

I think everyone is looking at it the wrong way. NGP differeniates itself because it is the only handheld device that CAN offer console games without comprimise. This its selling point not a negative. Im not sure there is any evidence to sugest it is a negative point like some people seem to think.

Yes, it is targeted at core gamers. That doesn't mean they can appeal to consumers at large later though. I remember one of the articles mentioned that Sony wants to expand the user base to casuals in its 3rd and 4th year. By then, the consumer landscape will be different again.

The 3DS has similar problems, but Nintendo managed to capture casuals/children in the western world. It should be easier for 3DS to succeed DS's popularity. Sony has no such luxury in the west. The NGP has to build the casual base from the ground up.

If it's down to pure software, services and content to differentiate NGP, then the other devices may stand an equal/better chance to dominate (iOS and Android have a bigger base to boot, PS Suite can run on Android anyway). Again, it may mean Sony needs to work/think harder for NGP.

EDIT: Also, people who don't have portable gaming needs can always choose PS3/360 over a "handheld device that CAN offer console games without compromise". It's safer/clearer if Sony can deliver compelling NGP-exclusive apps, not found on PS3, 360 and PS Suite. Then again, if it's just software or services, someone can replicate the experience on PS3, 360 or elsewhere.

 

[Nesh]

I believe Nintendo already announced some 3DS games that take advantage of the 3D display. Auto-stereoscopic display is easily understood by consumers. They showed the effect during the announcements. OTOH, more power and dual sticks are (better) understood by core gamers.

You didnt read carefully my reply. They announced games that will be displayed in 3D. They didnt say anything about some original implementation of 3D in gameplay ideas.

Yes, I am waiting. There is no rush to get into NGP at the moment.

I thought thats what yo have beeing doing

They have to differentiate from both because there is an overlap between NGP, cellphone gaming and home console gaming. The lines will continue to blur as cellphones and pads gain power, and more people play social games. For now, NGP seems to be aimed at the core gamers who wants mobility, privacy or convenience of a separate screen. The dual sticks and leading computing power appeal to them.

You mean differentiate from both? Or offer a differentiated experience for both? I am not sure what other market there is out there and if there is how large it is. If there is I d like you to point me to it. I still dont understand what makes you think that NGP is aimed to the core and not both core and casual. I have been waiting for you to explain me that but you still havent

 

[ShadowRunner]

Also, people who don't have portable gaming needs can always choose PS3/360 over a "handheld device that CAN offer console games without compromise". It's safer/clearer if Sony can deliver compelling NGP-exclusive apps, not found on PS3, 360 and PS Suite. Then again, if it's just software or services, someone can replicate the experience on PS3, 360 or elsewhere.

NGP will ofcourse have software for everyone just like consoles do and exclusive software is a certainty too. I have little doubt th NGP will offer all sorts, console ports, NGP exclusive big budget games, casual games etc.

When you talk of casuals who do you mean? And who do you think the console companies mean? To me the casuals that sony will be going after are the people that play fifa or madden or even CoD etc, with the hardcore being people who like demon souls or valkyrie chronicals or devil may cry etc, not the people tho play angry birds or cut the rope. Those 'super casuals' are never going to buy a dedicated device anyway when their phones offer them as much as they want already. That is why PS Suite and the psp phone exist. There is a big enough market of gamers out there there to make NGP a big success without expanding the market, the market is expanding naturally as years pass anyway. There is no reason NGP cant grow to be as big as success as PSP has become in japan now with its advanced connectivity features.

Im not sure what this curently non-existant sortware is you want them to produce for the device. Can you give an example of the type of games you have in mind that will make NGP a success?

 

[Prophecy2k]

So instead of pulling my phone out to play Cut the Rope or Angry Birds or Fragger while waiting for my food to be served at the local restaurant, I instead should've purchased a NGP to carry along side my phone in a backpack to the restaurant?

The size of the NGP is fact not fiction.

Yeah hyperbole is really just hyperbole ;-)

I carry around a satchel with me all the time. I also own an iPad that i carry around with me in my satchel. NGP is far smaller than an iPad and thus will fit snuggly in my satchel. I am typical of the many millions of people that live, school and work in a city like London where we basically have to commute everywhere. We are generally a big slice of the target market for portable gaming in general.

If you don't do your gaming on a regular commute, and you only whip out a portable device to do a few seconds of quick gaming while at a restaurant etc, then portable gaming consoles are neither designed for you nor targeting you. You have a phone for that ;-)

NGP simply isn't that big, and i doubt it's size will be a significant issue for the kinds of people who are in the market for a dedicated gaming device anyways. So you might want to try evangelising something else you can come up with to sway mindshare away from that dastardly evil Sony ;-)

 

[Prophecy2k]

I think everyone is looking at it the wrong way. NGP differeniates itself because it is the only handheld device that CAN offer console games without comprimise. This its selling point not a negative. Im not sure there is any evidence to sugest it is a negative point like some people seem to think.

I can see groups of kids sitting around playin CoD with eachother everyday during their lunch hours at school. Or maybe some Co-op Uncharted. Or just finish of a few missions in GTA. This to me is what a portable console should offer. Angry birds and other such games can stay on the phones, its not like the portable consoles can replace the need for a phone so they are much better of co-existing with the phone market rather than trying to offer the same sort of experiences, whats the point in carrying a second device that offers the same things you have on your phone already.

Now you see this is a perspective i can prescribe to. I think it's apparent that there is a market out there for console games on handhelds (on both NGP & 3DS). It think it's what will make or break Sony & Nintendos next haneheld ventures and ostensibly both corperations agree with me. Even Nintendo is targeting the core gamer with the 3DS (it would be pretty silly to disagree when looking at the launch lineup). And i think it's even the right way to go.

Nintendo has retained the same control interface of the DS and thus betted solely on 3D to be their saving grace. Sony has betted on providing diversity with their control and interface options and both have invested in more power too. It's clear they're competing in the same space again and it's also clear to me that both will see some success because of alot of the biggest complaints of their previous handhelds (graphics with the DS, and controls with the PSP) have been sorted out with their successor platforms. How much success will depend on the games and the market, but i believe it's far to early to start making blanket, confident statements about how each will fair on the market without knowing a) the price and b) wha the games will be like.

Both offer flexibility also to allow for both core and casual games and thus both can cover alot of the overlap between core DS/PSP gaming and iOS/Android. If Sony and Nintendo can provide enough of a reason for people to do their portable gaming solely on thier handhelds then they'll both do very well.

However the question of what both pieces of HW will provide both consumers and developers is obvious... a whole lot more power and flexibility, and a market for bigger games that's far less volatile than the App store.

 

[Teasy]

3DS is still a DS slapped with 3D. So far there is no title announced that makes use of the 3D screen to differentiate gameplay and they didnt communicate/explain during any of its announcements how 3D will change gameplay experience.

3DS is just a DS with 3D slapped on and PSP2 is just a PSP with a trackpad slapped on the back, why are we all getting so excited about these systems?

Also 3D can differentiate gameplay without needing any games to be designed to be 3D only, two words, depth perception.

 

[ShadowRunner]

Dont forget the dual sticks!

To be honest i think side by side many may be more impressed by the 2D NGP than the 3D of 3ds. I say this from my experience with 3D games on the PS3, specifically killzone, where playing in 2D actually more impressive to me than the low resolution 3D version of the game. I have a 3DTV but still play in 2D out of choice. 3D is great and adds to the immersion but is not worth the sacrifice being made in many cases. With that said there isnt even that much of a difference between killzone in 2d and 3d besides reduced resolution, there is going to be a much bigger gap between 3DS and NGP games from what i can see, considering the NGP is a lot more powerful already and 3DS is having to render 2 images for 3d aswel. Also it will be a lot of peoples first time actually playing games in such high resolution (Its not 720p but on a 5 inch screen it should look like it if not better)! I think there is a chance that NGP will actually get more oooohs and ahhhhs than the 3DS when seen side by side in a shop or whatever, i dont think its as clear cut as people think in that respect.

 

[RudeCurve]

Yeah hyperbole is really just hyperbole ;-)

I carry around a satchel with me all the time. I also own an iPad that i carry around with me in my satchel. NGP is far smaller than an iPad and thus will fit snuggly in my satchel. I am typical of the many millions of people that live, school and work in a city like London where we basically have to commute everywhere. We are generally a big slice of the target market for portable gaming in general.

If you don't do your gaming on a regular commute, and you only whip out a portable device to do a few seconds of quick gaming while at a restaurant etc, then portable gaming consoles are neither designed for you nor targeting you. You have a phone for that ;-)

NGP simply isn't that big, and i doubt it's size will be a significant issue for the kinds of people who are in the market for a dedicated gaming device anyways. So you might want to try evangelising something else you can come up with to sway mindshare away from that dastardly evil Sony ;-)

What alternate reality says there are millions of people in London carry around dedicated gaming handhelds in satchels?

 

[Teasy]

Dont forget the dual sticks!

I was being sarcastic, neither system is just its predecessor with one feature added, they both have significant improvements.

To be honest i think side by side many may be more impressed by the 2D NGP than the 3D of 3ds.

Very tech savy gamers with experience of 3D yes, but IMO most people will be wowed by 3D without glasses over better graphics. Especially when 3DS graphics are already good enough to impress.

 

[draconian]

I think everyone is looking at it the wrong way. NGP differeniates itself because it is the only handheld device that CAN offer console games without comprimise. This its selling point not a negative. Im not sure there is any evidence to sugest it is a negative point like some people seem to think.

I can see groups of kids sitting around playin CoD with eachother everyday during their lunch hours at school. Or maybe some Co-op Uncharted. Or just finish of a few missions in GTA. This to me is what a portable console should offer. Angry birds and other such games can stay on the phones, its not like the portable consoles can replace the need for a phone so they are much better of co-existing with the phone market rather than trying to offer the same sort of experiences, whats the point in carrying a second device that offers the same things you have on your phone already.

yeap. This is what NGP needs to focus on.
It's not as simple as just home consoles and portables.

These are the target markets:
1. at home cinematic high end single player experience - 360, ps3
2. Portable cinematic high end single player experience - ngp
3. at home low/casual experience single player experience - 360, ps3, wii
4. Portable low/casual experience single player experience - 3ds, iphone, android, ngp
5. at home high end local multiplayer experience (via split screen) - 360, ps3
6. portable high end local multiplayer experience - ngp
7. at home low end/casual local multiplayer experience (via split screen)- 360, ps3, wii
8. portable low end/casual local multiplayer experience - ngp, 3ds
9. at home high end internet multiplayer experience - 360, ps3
10. portable high end internet multiplayer experience (at wifi cafes, hotspots, and cell networks)- ngp
11. at home low end/casual internet multiplayer experience - 360, ps3, wii
12. portable low end/casual internet multiplayer experience (at wifi cafes, hotspots, and cell networks)- ngp, 3ds. iphone,android

As you can see from above, there are 3 areas, where the ngp is just by itself. That will have to be NGP's selling point and target markets.

 

[patsu]

You didnt read carefully my reply. They announced games that will be displayed in 3D. They didnt say anything about some original implementation of 3D in gameplay ideas.
I thought thats what yo have beeing doing

I believe a Nintendo exec mentioned a Nintendo game taking advantage of 3D display to enhance gameplay, but I can't remember which one anymore. (Read a brief article on andriasang or siliconera).

You mean differentiate from both? Or offer a differentiated experience for both? I am not sure what other market there is out there and if there is how large it is. If there is I d like you to point me to it. I still dont understand what makes you think that NGP is aimed to the core and not both core and casual. I have been waiting for you to explain me that but you still havent

There was an Kaz Hirai article that spells out NGP's target audience and timeframe (Start with core, and then spread to teenagers, and the rest). Find it ! Too busy right now. ^_^

 

[patsu]

When you talk of casuals who do you mean? And who do you think the console companies mean? To me the casuals that sony will be going after are the people that play fifa or madden or even CoD etc, with the hardcore being people who like demon souls or valkyrie chronicals or devil may cry etc, not the people tho play angry birds or cut the rope. Those 'super casuals' are never going to buy a dedicated device anyway when their phones offer them as much as they want already. That is why PS Suite and the psp phone exist. There is a big enough market of gamers out there there to make NGP a big success without expanding the market, the market is expanding naturally as years pass anyway. There is no reason NGP cant grow to be as big as success as PSP has become in japan now with its advanced connectivity features.

Yes, that makes more sense. I doubt NGP can grow to casual consumers (unless it can be repurposed for other tasks). NGP will likely start and end with the gaming crowd.

Im not sure what this curently non-existant sortware is you want them to produce for the device. Can you give an example of the type of games you have in mind that will make NGP a success?

We should be able to see what MS tries to do with Kinect soon, and how Nintendo tries to differentiate with 3DS's hardware features later. Both of the platforms have unique features not found in other consoles.

For Sony, I suspect Sony has switched to Playstation Network as the consolidation platform. The "special" software sauce we see will likely be network centric. From that point of view, NGP's similarity with other platform _may_ be a plus. Even if pads and phones overtake NGP in power one day, they will only serve to expand the PSN coverage.

By working harder on NGP, I meant making an ideal gaming experience (e.g., multiplayer, spectating, real rewards not just achievements, intuitive and interesting controls, …). Even though NGP may be technically much easier to program than PS3, I think Sony and partners may end up working the hardest on it (software-wise) to stand out.

Remember, this is just my personal assessment with limited info. Don't take it too seriously. I am rather curious to see a mixed Playstation Suite + NGP title though (i.e., Binaries that run on PS Suite but can take advantage of NGP as well). They can also simulate the effect by having the "same" title on both PS Suite and NGP.

 

[ShadowRunner]

Very tech savy gamers with experience of 3D yes, but IMO most people will be wowed by 3D without glasses over better graphics. Especially when 3DS graphics are already good enough to impress.

Thats part of the point, 3DS already impresses in the graphics department, i can only imagine being stunned by NGP, will have to wait until we have them in our hands though to see. Im sure many will be impressed by 3D im just saying its not black and white, many will be more impressed by NGP also, we will need to wait and see they may end up on equal footing depending on peoples taste.

 

[Mobius1aic]

yeap. This is what NGP needs to focus on.
It's not as simple as just home consoles and portables.

These are the target markets:
1. at home cinematic high end single player experience - 360, ps3
2. Portable cinematic high end single player experience - ngp
3. at home low/casual experience single player experience - 360, ps3, wii
4. Portable low/casual experience single player experience - 3ds, iphone, android, ngp
5. at home high end local multiplayer experience (via split screen) - 360, ps3
6. portable high end local multiplayer experience - ngp
7. at home low end/casual local multiplayer experience (via split screen)- 360, ps3, wii
8. portable low end/casual local multiplayer experience - ngp, 3ds
9. at home high end internet multiplayer experience - 360, ps3
10. portable high end internet multiplayer experience (at wifi cafes, hotspots, and cell networks)- ngp
11. at home low end/casual internet multiplayer experience - 360, ps3, wii
12. portable low end/casual internet multiplayer experience (at wifi cafes, hotspots, and cell networks)- ngp, 3ds. iphone,android

As you can see from above, there are 3 areas, where the ngp is just by itself. That will have to be NGP's selling point and target markets.

Add a mini-HDMI out for the NGP, and you could possibly replace the PS3 all together if the graphical fidelity and playability can be maintained at 720p as opposed to 960 x 540. Things like gyroscope based scope aiming is a cool idea that could be translated to a larger screen. While yes, the NGP is pretty far removed from what a PS3 could do, much like the PSP to the PS2, it seems like an excellent companion. I tend to think portable capable computing will replace desktop computing in the consumer space for most things, including game consoles. You see the trend with laptops, tablets, and of course phones already making that dedicated transition very long ago. Yes, they all have HDMI outs for use on a larger screen if desired, and I think NGP needs one too.

 

[Nesh]

I believe a Nintendo exec mentioned a Nintendo game taking advantage of 3D display to enhance gameplay, but I can't remember which one anymore. (Read a brief article on andriasang or siliconera).



There was an Kaz Hirai article that spells out NGP's target audience and timeframe (Start with core, and then spread to teenagers, and the rest). Find it ! Too busy right now. ^_^

I d prefer your assistance actually

Busy too