Formula 1 - 2011 Season

[cjo]

Phil, and can you claim to be objective when it comes to Hamilton, either?

Button didn't do any "move" whatsoever, he followed the exactly normal racing line on that straight.
I'll put up some gifs soon to prove my point, just need couple video clips readied, first.

Both of them played a part. It was a racing incident, was it not?

edit:
And are you saying it's just a coincidence that he's the one who's most often (6 times out of 7 races this season) questioned by stewards after race?

"Maybe it's because [he's] black".

 

[Kaotik]

Both of them played a part. It was a racing incident, was it not?

When one is clearly ahead (Hamilton had barely his front tire at his rear tire level) and is following normal racing line, he's not having any part in any possible crash, it's all overtakers responsibility.

 

[cjo]

When one is clearly ahead (Hamilton had barely his front tire at his rear tire level) and is following normal racing line, he's not having any part in any possible crash, it's all overtakers responsibility.

It was investigated by the stewards. They decided that it wasn't an "avoidable accident" and was therefore a racing incident. It wasn't solely Hamiltons fault, they both played a part.

 

[Kaotik]

Here you can see from the same lap, Button is using exact same line as Schumacher before him

Only difference being, Schumacher didn't have anyone sticking their nose to too small cap.

 

[Dave Baumann]

It doesn't really make much difference in arguing it. It was deemed a racing incident. Following a mistake off the chicane Hamilton was faster than Button and it was reasonable to make a move. Had Button seen him he would have left him room. There is precident for Hamilton to think this would happen given that Hamilton has passed Button a number of times this season (and the reverese the case at least once) and in each time they have given each other the room.

 

[RobertR1]

I do agree that this was a racing incident but truth be told, Hamilton seems to get red mist when he's within a certain range of the car ahead.

The current crop of drivers don't seem to have the "move aside" mentality that he is hoping for.

It'll be interesting to see how many incidents he's involved in during the course of this season. Btw, watching this race made me miss Takuma Sato. He'd have a spectacular crash in each session in such conditions. That guy can wad up a car better than anyone.

 

[Bludd]

Hamilton just pushes too hard because he wants to beat Vettel. He has made a lot of mistakes this year, but he also has made some amazing moves.

 

[Kaotik]

It doesn't really make much difference in arguing it. It was deemed a racing incident. Following a mistake off the chicane Hamilton was faster than Button and it was reasonable to make a move. Had Button seen him he would have left him room. There is precident for Hamilton to think this would happen given that Hamilton has passed Button a number of times this season (and the reverese the case at least once) and in each time they have given each other the room.

The question is, where is the thresold between racing incident and something else, when it's continously same guy on the other side of it?
There's supposed to be a rule that when you reach 3 warnings you get 5 place drop for next race qualifying, and Hamilton has been called in by the stewards already in 6 races this season - are they afraid of giving warnings to one of the top drivers or wth is going on? If you get continously called in after the race, it's next to impossible you don't get some warnings too

 

[Bludd]

The question is, where is the thresold between racing incident and something else, when it's continously same guy on the other side of it?
There's supposed to be a rule that when you reach 3 warnings you get 5 place drop for next race qualifying, and Hamilton has been called in by the stewards already in 6 races this season - are they afraid of giving warnings to one of the top drivers or wth is going on? If you get continously called in after the race, it's next to impossible you don't get some warnings too

3 reprimands and then you get a grid penalty, AFAIK Hamilton only has 1 reprimand.

 

[dizietsma]

Is Hamilton pushing so hard on overtakes because he is chasing Vettel or because he now has the most do-daring overtaker in F1 currently and so he is living up to the image?

If I was him I must confess I'd be weak enough to want to reinforce the image.

 

[tongue_of_colicab]

He's trying too hard. The mclaren is not fast enough to really compete with RBR and its obvious that it frustrates him. Which makes him do all these all or nothing moves in a attempt to win. He doesn't seem capable of pacing himself and accept that you can't go any faster than the car will allow you to.

 

[Kaotik]

Whoa, I just read a finnish magazine where Heikki Kulta, F1 reporter with long, long career and high reputation in the F1 world, has a column - apparently FIA/Jean Todt was already considering giving Hamilton a 6 GP long ban after Monaco, but ultimately decided against it.

 

[Dave Baumann]

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/92091

That's an old comment, and one that I think was taken out of context - merely a throwaway comment of a possible sanction that ultimately wasn't even visited.

 

[cjo]

Whoa, I just read a finnish magazine where Heikki Kulta, F1 reporter with long, long career and high reputation in the F1 world, has a column - apparently FIA/Jean Todt was already considering giving Hamilton a 6 GP long ban after Monaco, but ultimately decided against it.

The ban would have been for his outburst afterwards, not his conduct during the race.

 

[Kaotik]

The ban would have been for his outburst afterwards, not his conduct during the race.

Yeah, just read it from the autosport article, in the column it was only mentioned as sidenote when he talked about Hamiltons short race

 

[Phil]

Button didn't do any "move" whatsoever, he followed the exactly normal racing line on that straight.

When one is clearly ahead (Hamilton had barely his front tire at his rear tire level) and is following normal racing line, he's not having any part in any possible crash, it's all overtakers responsibility.

With all due respect, I think you're getting mixed up with what overtaking is on public roads (the overtakers responsibilty) and what it is during a racing event.

What you are advocating is that overtaking should be forbidden on pretty much 95% of the track and only really allow it on tracks with long enough straights where pulling off a clean move before either reaches any corner is possible. This, however, does not apply to most of the tracks because the speed differential between cars and drivers is relative small and most tracks don't have as long straights.

To make overtaking possible (and therefore enhance the spectacle the fans who finance the sport want to see), the FIA have introduced rules and guidelines as well as driver aids. One of them is the rule that allows one change of direction while defending a position, and others, like the ones introduced this year, include DRS, KERS and new tyres.

20.2 Manoeuvres liable to hinder other drivers, such as more than one change of direction to defend a position, deliberate crowding of a car beyond the edge of the track or any other abnormal change of direction, are not permitted.

The above rule clearly states that the deliberate crowding of a car beyond the edge of the track is not allowed. This also means that one can only make that one change of direction to defend a position as long as the overtaker has not put himself in a position where he, the driver defending, would push the overtaker beyond the edge of the track.

If what you say is correct and that it's only ever the responsibility of the overtaker to pull off his move and that a driver, regardless of position, can always stick to the general accepted racing line without care if there's someone by his side or not - you would not see any overtaking at all, except for maybe on the extremely long straights of some circuits like china.
This, however, is not what F1 wants, nor the fans it seems, as further rules and regulations are introduced that should enhance the overtaking opportunities and therefore the spectacle.

In the case of Hamilton/Button. Hamilton got a much better run through the chicane leading up to the 2nd DRS zone. It's a DRS zone - a zone where overtaking is and should be expected at all times among its competitive drivers. Button occupies the right side of the track, thus it's logical to assume that Button is likely defending his inside line (or simply leaving room for his teammate) and that Hamilton goes for the pass on the left, the only space available to him. Button an instant later decides to move over and at this very moment, as Hamilton's front is already level with Buttons rear, continues to move over and pushes Hamilton beyond the edge of the track into the wall, something that the rule clearly doesn't allow.

Perhaps to look at it from a different angle; what should Hamilton have done differently? He got through the chicane quicker, carrying more speed and thus holding an advantage. He enters the DRS zone already at a higher speed than Button. Button is on the right, there's plenty of space on the left. What would you do? If you expect him to assume Button will come over because of that slight right-hander (can't even consider it a corner as it's driven flat out), the only option is to brake and lose that advantage and NOT overtake because the right side at that point was blocked by Button. With this logic, you'd never see any overtaking there, so why make it a DRS zone in the first place?

Now the reason why this is in fact a racing incident is because the action by Button was not deliberate. He didn't see Hamilton due to the bad visibility, even though IMO, he should have known what was coming given his bad drive through the chicane. None the less, a racing incident. However, if this had happened in the dry, with good visibility, I have no doubt that Button would be the one facing a penalty and not Hamilton.

The exact definition of overtaking is putting yourself in an advantageous position over your opponent. To want anything other than that would simply produce boring races where overtaking would only be down to having a quicker car, superiour tyres and the long straights to enable it.

This is supposed to be racing, is it not?

 

[Kaotik]

With all due respect, I think you're getting mixed up with what overtaking is on public roads (the overtakers responsibilty) and what it is during a racing event.

What you are advocating is that overtaking should be forbidden on pretty much 95% of the track and only really allow it on tracks with long enough straights where pulling off a clean move before either reaches any corner is possible. This, however, does not apply to most of the tracks because the speed differential between cars and drivers is relative small and most tracks don't have as long straights.

To make overtaking possible (and therefore enhance the spectacle the fans who finance the sport want to see), the FIA have introduced rules and guidelines as well as driver aids. One of them is the rule that allows one change of direction while defending a position, and others, like the ones introduced this year, include DRS, KERS and new tyres.

Not true at all, probably 95%+ of overtakes in F1 history did NOT require the one being passed to move aside (at least before the overtaker was at his side or even in front of him)
Until you've passed the other drive, or at least just next to him, neither in front, it's the overtakers responsibility to see if there's room for his manouver, not the ones being passed.

The above rule clearly states that the deliberate crowding of a car beyond the edge of the track is not allowed. This also means that one can only make that one change of direction to defend a position as long as the overtaker has not put himself in a position where he, the driver defending, would push the overtaker beyond the edge of the track.

So you're suggesting that if the overtaker manages just to get his wing at your rears level on your side, the one being overtaken has to move aside?
This is someone pushing the other deliberately off the track (even though Schumacher was the "overtaker" coming from pits) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ip9dRArIurI

What Button did was holding normal racing line, not pushing or crowding Hamilton off the track - if you have only your wing / front wheels perhaps on the level of the other cars rear, you have absolutely no right to presume he's gonna switch his lane just so you can pass him.

If what you say is correct and that it's only ever the responsibility of the overtaker to pull off his move and that a driver, regardless of position, can always stick to the general accepted racing line without care if there's someone by his side or not - you would not see any overtaking at all, except for maybe on the extremely long straights of some circuits like china.

Again, not true at all, if you can push yourself at least on his level or even slightly past, the other one has no business driving over you, if however, like in this case, you just barely get your front to other ones rear level, it's the overtakes responsibility to make sure there's room.
Same in corners, if you manage to squeeze yourself into the corner side by side or even remotely close to side by side, the one being overtaken has to give some room, but if you're just barely at his rear level, of course you can't assume he's going to give you room.
(Like Webber gave Hamilton room in the first corner after safety car left the track (and still got bumped by Hamilton))

This, however, is not what F1 wants, nor the fans it seems, as further rules and regulations are introduced that should enhance the overtaking opportunities and therefore the spectacle.

In the case of Hamilton/Button. Hamilton got a much better run through the chicane leading up to the 2nd DRS zone. It's a DRS zone - a zone where overtaking is and should be expected at all times among its competitive drivers. Button occupies the right side of the track, thus it's logical to assume that Button is likely defending his inside line (or simply leaving room for his teammate) and that Hamilton goes for the pass on the left, the only space available to him. Button an instant later decides to move over and at this very moment, as Hamilton's front is already level with Buttons rear, continues to move over and pushes Hamilton beyond the edge of the track into the wall, something that the rule clearly doesn't allow.

Button occupies the right side just like everyone else does, and moves to left side, just like everyone else does, on normal racing line, only difference is that he went just a tiny bit long in the corner but he got promptly back to racing line, way before Hamilton was anywhere near overtaking positions.

Perhaps to look at it from a different angle; what should Hamilton have done differently? He got through the chicane quicker, carrying more speed and thus holding an advantage. He enters the DRS zone already at a higher speed than Button. Button is on the right, there's plenty of space on the left. What would you do? If you expect him to assume Button will come over because of that slight right-hander (can't even consider it a corner as it's driven flat out), the only option is to brake and lose that advantage and NOT overtake because the right side at that point was blocked by Button. With this logic, you'd never see any overtaking there, so why make it a DRS zone in the first place?

He should have either pulled off and try again at faster pace where he can get at least on his side where the main racing line goes near left edge of the track, or pass from the right side after Button moves left, if he can keep enough speed to pass him.
There's was countless succesfull overtakes on the DRS zone which didn't require the one being overtaken to move aside.

Now the reason why this is in fact a racing incident is because the action by Button was not deliberate. He didn't see Hamilton due to the bad visibility, even though IMO, he should have known what was coming given his bad drive through the chicane. None the less, a racing incident. However, if this had happened in the dry, with good visibility, I have no doubt that Button would be the one facing a penalty and not Hamilton.

There's no way, wet or dry, that Button should have even been considered to receive a penalty from it, he was ahead and on racing line, he didn't even make the one move you're allowed to make to try to block the overtake.

The exact definition of overtaking is putting yourself in an advantageous position over your opponent. To want anything other than that would simply produce boring races where overtaking would only be down to having a quicker car, superiour tyres and the long straights to enable it.

This is supposed to be racing, is it not?

Yes, and you're suggesting that anyone being overtaken should just move aside if the one trying to overtake you is running out of space, even though he's nowhere near your side yet, which definately isn't racing.

 

[Bludd]

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/92494

Charlie Whiting has told the teams they have to use the same engine map for the start of the race and can only change at the first pit-stop. This starts at Valencia.

It will be very interesting to see what will happens to Vettel's quali pace vis-a-vis Webber's and then compared to the rest of the field. I think Vettel has been so good at handling this extreme engine map and maximising his tyre usage with it, that this will hurt him. We'll see.

 

[RobertR1]

I get so fuckin annoyed with mid season rule changes....

 

[DJ12]

Given that it's standard for teams to change engine maps on the fly I don't see the point of this particular rule.

What's stopping them driving with the hot-blowing engine map enabled for most of the lap then switching to a normal engine map for the last corner and start finish straight.