Windows 10 [2014 - 2017]

[DmitryKo]

Reinventing wheels isn't innovation.

So, does your analogy mean that there is no innovation going from horse-driven carriages to electric hybrid vehicles, since they both use wheels? Or that code written for a MS-DOS 3.0 computer with Intel 80286 processor, CGA adapter and 512 Kbytes of RAM will automatically convert itself to run on multiprocessor system with 8-core "886" CPU and 1000+ core dedicated graphics processor, 16 Gbytes of RAM, protected mode multitasking OS, and cloud network connection, just because it's the same basic von Neumann architecture?

 

[rcf]

So, does your analogy mean that there is no innovation going from horse-driven carriages to electric hybrid vehicles, since they both use wheels? Or that code written for a MS-DOS 3.0 computer with Intel 80286 processor, CGA adapter and 512 Kbytes of RAM will automatically convert itself to run on multiprocessor system with 8-core "886" CPU and 1000+ core dedicated graphics processor, 16 Gbytes of RAM, protected mode multitasking OS, and cloud network connection, just because it's the same basic von Neumann architecture?

I was referring to Windows NT and Office for Windows. From most users' perspectives there isn't much difference between Windows 2000 vs Windows 10 or old Office versions vs Office365. Such older software would be enough for them to do their jobs just fine. Most users upgrade not because of features, but because the newer version comes pre-installed on new computers, or their new peripherals don't have drivers for older Windows. And what they see from one version to another is mostly eyecandy: different interfaces, 3D widgets, transparent windows, animated dogs and paperclips, etc.
Meanwhile they still get infected by malware and suffer from "Windows rot".

 

[Arwin]

Windows rot isn't nearly the problem it was back in the pre NT kernal days though. Also, some of those UI improvements are rather significant, as are the file-format changes, etc. If anyone wants to hire someone for creating the next generation of Word processors though, hire me, because I know how it should be done.

 

[rcf]

Windows rot isn't nearly the problem it was back in the pre NT kernal days though.

IIRC Windows rot got worse with registry-based Windows (Win9x and WinNT 4.0 onwards).
I certainly see it on my relatives' Win7 notebooks.

 

[eastmen]

IIRC Windows rot got worse with registry-based Windows (Win9x and WinNT 4.0 onwards).
I certainly see it on my relatives' Win7 notebooks.

I went 2 years without reinstalling windows 8. By far the longest time period of not reinstalling an OS.

Andriod rot has got to be the worse thing ever. I wipe my android device back to factory settings every other month

 

[Grall]

Windows still rots plenty these days. Had to turn off hardware acceleration in IE the other week, because the damn thing kept causing video driver resets. Not that it helped all that much, as after a week+ of uptime it kept rendering some tabs in a truly bizarre manner with large parts missing, text rendered haphazardly, lots of garbage pixels all over the place, flickering and visible polygon seams in objects... Weird as hell.

 

[Silent_Buddha]

I haven't experience Windows "rot" in ages. The only time Windows gets installed new is when a new version of Windows can't do an inplace upgrade. Otherwise, I haven't had to re-install Windows since sometime around 2003.

My father's Vista machine that I built for him at the end of 2007 is still going just peachy. I did, however, teach him safe browing habits and things to avoid to minimize the risk of malware. Heck my Vista laptop is still running just like it did when I bought it. Granted I don't use it as much now, but it saw regular use from when I bought it in 2008 all the way through 2013.

The biggest problems I run into with Windows "rot" is when people use registry cleaners because they think it'll make their computer run better. And then suddenly their computer starts to get worse by the day. And, of course, the usual suspect of User behavior in installing things they shouldn't be installing. Malware infested warez, applications, etc. Or clicking on things that they shouldn't be clicking on in e-mails/web browsers. Or going to sites that have a high risk of malware infection.

Regards,
SB

 

[Arwin]

Indeed and same here. My wife's Win7 (used to be mine) got a bit sluggish after 4 years though. But I haven't reinstalled anything since Vista.

 

[DmitryKo]

a

From most users' perspectives there isn't much difference between Windows 2000 vs Windows 10 or old Office versions vs Office365...
what they see from one version to another is mostly eyecandy: different interfaces, 3D widgets, transparent windows, animated dogs and paperclips, etc.

So because the GUI in Windows 9x and Windows 7 64-bit can be made to look the same, all the architectural changes between them are not relevant - if Windows 9x wouldn't even boot on any PC made after 2005, it's because greedy Microsoft wants you to upgrade to a newer OS and change all your drivers and programs in process. Point taken.

Such older software would be enough for them to do their jobs just fine.

I find it ironic how the PC ecosystem has always been appreciated for its opennes and upgradeability by power users, and yet casual users treat their PCs as a home appliance with a fixed feature set. This is the exact kind of audience which Office 365 subscriptions and continuous OS updates are targeted at.

Meanwhile they still get infected by malware and suffer from "Windows rot".

Most malware infections these days come from uninformed casual users downloading "free games" from random Internet sites then running this malicious code with full admin rights by automatically approving UAC prompts. There is nothing any OS can do in this situation, as attackers are always one step ahead of defenders. This problem is best solved by Windows Store where all content is approved by Microsoft.

 

[Mariner]

Andriod rot has got to be the worse thing ever. I wipe my android device back to factory settings every other month

Just wipe the cache and Dalvik cache every now and again. This should remove any 'rot' you experience.

My current Android phone (a cheapo Chinaphone running an MIUI port) has been working absolutely fine for a few months now. No problems/glitches to speak of at all.

I suppose it may depend on which brand you are using as I've always heard that Samsung's TouchWiz tends to have issues. It's no surprise that many of the newer UI overlays from many manufacturers seem to be a bit closer to AOSP than past implementations.

 

[rcf]

So because the GUI in Windows 9x and Windows 7 64-bit can be made to look the same, all the architectural changes between them are not relevant - if Windows 9x wouldn't even boot on any PC made after 2005, it's because greedy Microsoft wants you to upgrade to a newer OS and change all your drivers and programs in process. Point taken.

As I said I was referring to Windows NT, and Windows 2000 is NT 5.0.
WinNT is a big jump from Win9x, but that isn't the case from NT 5.0 onwards even if plumbing has gotten better with NT 6.x.

Most malware infections these days come from uninformed casual users downloading "free games" from random Internet sites then running this malicious code with full admin rights by automatically approving UAC prompts. There is nothing any OS can do in this situation, as attackers are always one step ahead of defenders. This problem is best solved by Windows Store where all content is approved by Microsoft.

Uninformed and impatient users constitute the majority of users, and the complexity and fragility of the software stack don't help at all. An App Store would improve security, but then Microsoft would have the power to ban entire classes of applications just like Apple do.

 

[Grall]

An App Store would improve security, but then Microsoft would have the power to ban entire classes of applications just like Apple do.

Absolutely. It would fix one set of problems, and create another, and arguably worse one at that. Infringement of freedom of speech, expression and choice.

 

[Infinisearch]

Just wipe the cache and Dalvik cache every now and again. This should remove any 'rot' you experience.

Sorry for the OT post but how do you do this?

 

[DmitryKo]

WinNT is a big jump from Win9x, but that isn't the case from NT 5.0 onwards even if plumbing has gotten better with NT 6.x.

What you describe as "plumbing" amounts to almost complete rewrite of OS kernel and drivers between Windows XP, Windows Server 2003 and Windows Vista/7. It may be the same basic architecture, but certainly not the same code as you imply.

Uninformed and impatient users constitute the majority of users, and the complexity and fragility of the software stack don't help at all.

"Fragility"? You run some unknown untrusted code with full administrator rights. Do you think any other OS would be less "fragile" in this situation?

An App Store would improve security, but then Microsoft would have the power to ban entire classes of applications just like Apple do.

Absolutely. It would fix one set of problems, and create another, and arguably worse one at that. Infringement of freedom of speech, expression and choice.

Modern/Universal apps run in a sandboxed environment, and so will Win32 applications sold through the Microsoft Store. However end users still have the power to install and run any Win32 program - including the ability to run potentially dangerous code that can possibly infect your computer with malware.

If you think there is a better solution - like introducing tightly controlled sandboxing for all Win32 applications by default - please share with us.

 

[Mariner]

Sorry for the OT post but how do you do this?

Hmmm. Might not be as easy as I thought for some users.

I always root my phone and install a custom recovery (either ClockworkMod or TWRP) and both of these easily allow the user to wipe cache and dalvik cache.

I've just had a quick check and it appears that the stock android recovery doesn't offer the chance to wipe the dalvik cache though most do allow the normal cache to be wiped. If you go this route be very careful not to factory reset/wipe the phone!

You should also be able to delete cached data for apps from within settings in android which might help to some extent.

 

[Rodéric]

MS is responsible for creating admin accounts by default (not sure it still does though ;p)
Ask for an administration password at install time and ask the user to create a user account too, then don't allow any other admin account to be created. (or something like that)

I installed Windows 10 and don't remember what type of account it creates, I assume it's still admin since I could install software... which is wrong.

 

[Kaotik]

MS is responsible for creating admin accounts by default (not sure it still does though ;p)
Ask for an administration password at install time and ask the user to create a user account too, then don't allow any other admin account to be created. (or something like that)

I installed Windows 10 and don't remember what type of account it creates, I assume it's still admin since I could install software... which is wrong.

It's "almost admin", it now asks are you sure when you're installing stuff and IIRC some features require you to sign in with the actual admin account via safe mode
(it's possible it also asks when installing whether to create "almost admin" or "normal" account, can't remember really)

 

[Blazkowicz]

Isn't the default a regular user since Vista?
There is priviledge escalation where the only thing you have to do is to click "yes".
That's nice if you have to fix one thing on a random Windows box, you can right-click on a launcher for cmd.exe and select "Run as administrator" and here is it, an omni-powerful prompt.

That's fine for plain users as they want to install software, or don't want to know. It's a bit ridiculous though, so you can change security settings so that it actually prompts for an admin password.
Ubuntu was already doing it many many years ago, with a default solution half way between those : prompt for the user password to grant admin priviledges. That may feel insane but it's useful and much better than "run everything as root".
If you do have stricter requirements you're free to disable priviledge escalation in either Ubuntu or Windows.

 

[Blazkowicz]

Windows still rots plenty these days. Had to turn off hardware acceleration in IE the other week, because the damn thing kept causing video driver resets. Not that it helped all that much, as after a week+ of uptime it kept rendering some tabs in a truly bizarre manner with large parts missing, text rendered haphazardly, lots of garbage pixels all over the place, flickering and visible polygon seams in objects... Weird as hell.

Had to turn it off in firefox/linux too (didn't even know it was enabled) because Google Maps had become extremely slow. As in ten seconds to respond and then freezes the browser. Turning off "acceleration" made it 20x faster (still slow but usable). Google Earth runs at like a hundred fps.
I guess web developers use a Haswell laptop and say "see, it works well on my laptop so there's nothing wrong".
Some 20-year-old somethings laugh when seeing a VGA plug, saying it's old crap! Hell, the old crap did actually work and still works. (and VGA has higher bandwith than single link DVI)

I wonder if in your particular example you're suffiering from "GPU rot".
We used to have 2D acceleration that always worked (GDI acceleration tech from the 90s) and now stuff has to be done either over OpenGL or DirectX, uses shaders etc. so it got exponentially more brittle.
Old GPU drivers have some "bit rot" and the hardware itself may seem to be failing in ways that a pure 2D desktop or a 3D game are fine, but "accelerated" stuff is not and the worst offender is 3D graphics over the web (WebGL) that is most likely to fail.

 

[rcf]

What you describe as "plumbing" amounts to almost complete rewrite of OS kernel and drivers between Windows XP, Windows Server 2003 and Windows Vista/7. It may be the same basic architecture, but certainly not the same code as you imply.

I'm not implying it's the same code, I'm just saying that in practice it doesn't make much difference to typical users.

"Fragility"? You run some unknown untrusted code with full administrator rights. Do you think any other OS would be less "fragile" in this situation?

Yes, fragility due to millions of lines of code and ever-changing APIs, and the same happens to Unix btw. Users will get owned regardless of their access privileges unless you go Apple-style and do an App Store in a closed platform like iOS.