What's your opinion on Blu-ray technology?

If all the properties of the Blu-ray Disc drive in PS3 (transfer speed, seek time etc) are above those of the DVD drive in PS3 I guess it doesn't need a TRC article to force BD.

mozmo said:
BD9 which is effectively the same as a dvd9 is part of the bluray spec, developers could use that format and it would still be classified as a bluray disc. I have a feel a lot of first gen stuff will use BD9 cause it's cheaper to press and there is plenty of space. Also using BD9 results in no royalties going to the dvd forum but into sony's pocket.

Certain games that of course need more space for hd video clips will use the blue laser 25gb bluray discs which of course cost more to manufacture.
BD9 is merely a video format, not a physical disc format which is relevant to games. Games can use whatever video codecs they want to use even on DVD.
 
one said:
If all the properties of the Blu-ray Disc drive in PS3 (transfer speed, seek time etc) are above those of the DVD drive in PS3 I guess it doesn't need a TRC article to force BD.
That forces nothing - PS2 drive speed is cut in half with CDs and games still shipped on them. Anyway, when you have your biggest US publisher happily ship early games with 1minute loading times, drive speed becomes sort of immaterial.
 
Fafalada said:
That forces nothing - PS2 drive speed is cut in half with CDs and games still shipped on them. Anyway, when you have your biggest US publisher happily ship early games with 1minute loading times, drive speed becomes sort of immaterial.


Are you saying there will some PS3 games shipped on DVD disks? There won't be.
 
Edge said:
I was being sarcastic. In has been made clear numerous times by the Blu-ray Association and Sony that manufacturing Blu-ray disks is just a little bit more expensive than DVD disks. No format can succeed unless the manufacturing costs of the media is low..

Yes and BDs will be even cheaper than DVD sometime in the far future because it can use paper or corn as the substrate. Even 1TB BDs using 40 layers will be possilble...I so looking forward to those games...:p

The fact that Sony is releasing every PS3 game on Blu-ray media points to the fact it is low in cost to manufacture or Sony would be releasing games on DVD-ROM

Uh..no..it doesn't point to that fact. Just like PS2/PS1 ackwards compatibility which SONY has said is very expensive to include in PS3, they're still willing to take that hit. Games coming out on BR will be the same. I wouldn't be suprised if SONY is also taking a hit on the disc manufacturing in order to keep publishers happy.

PSman said:
I forgot to add, another great advantage of Blu-ray is that, it is MUCH more durable than DVD:smile:

Unless you play frisbee with you DVDs, it's a moot point.
 
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Fafalada said:
Spending additional time to find ways to fit data onto smaller disc tends to increase development costs, not reduce them.
Anyway the increases on disc costs will come down to publisher discretion - the exact same argument was true when PS2 launched (CDs were noticeably cheaper to press then DVDs) and for that reason some early games opted to release on CD. Sony isn't preventing anyone to still use CD/DVD for PS3 as far as I'm aware of.

My understanding is that all PS3 games will be on BR.
 
deathkiller said:
Kutaragi said that for publishers BD SL cost = DVD DL cost.

That was my point eg SONY is absorbing the addition costs of BR discs so that publishers don't have to. To publishers the cost of publishing games on BR will be the same as DVD since SONY are the ones absorbing the additional costs.
 
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I thought this thread will be talking about BD in general and not only PS3 specific?

I am more excited seeing a new large optical storage format for use in the IT and business sectors than the commerical ones.
as for PS3 in specific; the main reason for a BD drive in the PS3 is not games at all. BD was made for the bigger and more lucrative movie industry. my guess is why Sony would make PS3 games only on BD is to further push the BD platform. you can bet they will use PS3 software sale records in BD speeches and announcements. they will say 'we shipped X amount of BDs' or 'BD is talking Y% of the multimedia platforms' all the time including the number of PS3 software shipments as well.

BD for games on PS3 is only one part of the bigger BD game. heck, BD might be more important to Sony than Cell. so even if PS3 shipps without Cell, RSX or anything else, it has to have a BD drive for the greater cause. Cell is also very important of course, but I don't know how the potential profits from it compare to the potential profits of BD.
 
I see a few distinct advantages that come with Blu-Ray. The biggest advantage it brings IMO is offering so much of space that developers will spend less time thinking of ways to pack more data into less space. Space can be used for more data and it can be used to make that data more easily accessable. When you have 3 to 5 times the space to play around with than your nearest competitor and use it, it could very well have an impact on porting those games over at a later time. If the costs of porting outweigh the potential benefits, ports may not be done (or reduced in quality to bring down costs) which could have an effect on the overall outcome in which console gains the largest marketshare and by what margin.

In fact, I personally think Blu-Ray could be the largest factor in the console-race, which is why I presume Sony will make BR (if they haven't already) the primarey and only medium for games on PS3.
 
I'm presonally more interested in HD DVD. Although we won't know for sure, it's certainly looking to be the better value solution when it comes to $/GB. I only just recently spent $500 on a DVD player, yet here we are with HD DVD players for not much more (and they are probably better too). Whereas all indications are blu-ray may have upwards of a 2x markup. For the average consumer with a 720P TV, what would they choose? faced with paying potentially twice the price (or more?) for a unit that will only differ on content. Early indications (imo) are more quantity for blu-ray, but perhaps more quality for hd-dvd, although of course thats a very subjective judgment :)

in reguards to games taking up lots of space, I believe microsoft are doing good things in this reguard. The developments with the XNA toolsets, framework, etc, should help this a lot. Their example project, mech commander 2, using xna build showed 40% of the game assetes were actually redundant. On top of this, they are also bringing significant advances in compression. Part of xna is xact, the new replacement for directsound (effectivly). This has native support for XMA files, which are a game-tailored variation of WMA audio files. From memory the 360 has dedicated hardware for decoding these files (well I think it does).
Add to that decent texture compression (simple example is FP10) and I feel running out of space (even on a dvd) is a sign you havn't designed your game very well. Afterall, everything has to be loaded at some point. If you can sacrifice 80% of a files size for 5% of it's quality (if, say, using 150kbps/wma equivalent audio?) then that is a *huge* saving on not only load time but also runtime performance (less time spent managing streaming data), for a difference you'd be hard pressed to hear.
I also wonder what effect the 360's 'unified' memory model will have on this situation when it comes to textures.

The last project I did, which fit on a single CD (because it was just two of us working on it - I did the code) had the following data distribution:

for every 100mb:
28mb audio (.wav)
55mb textures (.png/.dds/.tga)
17mb geometry (compressed binary .x)

Audio was definitly not the strong point of the project (long story, should have had about ~4x more audio at *much* higher quality). So you can easily see that not compressing the audio can have a huge impact on size.
The majority of textures were .png, however the majority of the space went to the uncompressed .tgas (in practise converting these would have halved the required space for textures, easily). The geometry was highly compressed as it was (it's about 4x compression overall).

So with that sort of data, you can make a rough guess that a modern game can easily be 50% audio, 35% textures, and 15% geometry. With proper compression, you can hopfully see that there are massive savings to be made. If you deal with a average 4x compression ratio, that can easily be the difference between needing a 50gb blu-ray disk and a single dvd (and don't even mention load times).
My PC oblivion dvd is 4gb after all.
 
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Yes too many people downplay compression as if it's a bad thing. Compression allows higher effective data transfer rates which also helps loading times. I also think the notion that time spent by developers to compress data can be spend doing other things doesn't hold much water. It doesn't take that much time to compress data when you have automated tools for it and you can do it at the last minute.
 
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Graham said:
The last project I did, which fit on a single CD (because it was just two of us working on it - I did the code) had the following data distribution:

for every 100mb:
28mb audio (.wav)
55mb textures (.png/.dds/.tga)
17mb geometry (compressed binary .x)

So with that sort of data, you can make a rough guess that a modern game can easily be 50% audio, 35% textures, and 15% geometry. With proper compression, you can hopfully see that there are massive savings to be made.
How do those figures compare with modern console games though? If you take an XB or PS2 game weighing in at 3 GB, is that all uncompressed audio and textures? Or are they using MP3s and JPGs already? If most of the current assets sit on the disc with no compression, sure there's loads of scope for getting more on disc. If they're already compressed this gen, next-gen the compression isn't likely to make the files much smaller because there's only so much compression you can actually apply. Unless there's a case to believe that where current gen uses say 3:1 compression for the average for assets, and next gen compression will be 10:1, the increase in game content should be met with a proportional increase in disc space requirements. 5x the assets ~ 5x the disc space needed.
 
Pretty striking difference. Also makes those DVD/Blu-ray comparisons from CES seem more realistic, also. The higher resolution brings a definite improvement in colour fidelity, for example, something some people suggested was an indication of exhibitors faking the difference at CES.

I think pretty much anyone with a HDTV would want to enjoy that kind of improvement. My projector is licking its lips in anticipation :p
 
Titanio said:
Pretty striking difference. Also makes those DVD/Blu-ray comparisons from CES seem more realistic, also. The higher resolution brings a definite improvement in colour fidelity, for example, something some people suggested was an indication of exhibitors faking the difference at CES.

I think pretty much anyone with a HDTV would want to enjoy that kind of improvement. My projector is licking its lips in anticipation :p

Yep, the difference is pretty amazing even on that very crappy GIF file - you can only see the improvement in resolution, as it just cannot resolve all the colours the real images have. Meaning, in real life both would look better.
 
To me it looks like that comparison pic is a little bit doctored to over emphasize the inferiority of SD image.
For example, the SD image looks like it's from a very bad DVD transfer.
I don't know what film that image is from, but I wouldn't be surprised if the HD image is a more recent remastered image where among other things the very bad edge enhancement (a very common fault found in many older DVD's, and sadly in some amounts even in some new DVD's too. Basically the same as "sharpness" setting in most tellies) which gives a "halo effect" to outlines and loses much of the finer detail, has been cleaned up.
Also, I'm not sure, but would a still image from a progressive HD-DVD or Blu-ray in general be clearer than from the natively interlaced SD image. While I'm sure I'm still very much lost on the matter frames per second on HD vs SD, is it possible that the increased fps of HD would give a much better still.
Someone please enlighten me on the matter of fps on HD.

Still, while I don't think in most cases the difference is that dramatic, especially in moving picture and more recent DVD's, I think that pic is a good enough demonstration of the beneficts of HD over SD.
Even if it's a bit exaggarated, it shows what you can look for when moving from SD to HD,
 
Well it IS a picture of a screen, which is never really the best option, but that's basically what you see on screen, it's not been doctored. Being a picture of the screen though, both images look worse than they do in reality as we all know, taking pictures of a TV screen just isn't right. So, the SD looks a bit worse than reality, but the same is true for the HD picture too.
 
I'll take your point about transfer quality, rabidrabbit. Although for all we know, this may be a "bad" HD transfer, relatively speaking, also ;)

If the HD formats have a higher average transfer quality, I'll be pleased. One can hope, anyway. Some DVDs I just can't watch on a big screen (e.g. Minority Report - such a noisy picture). More resolution will automatically help, but hopefully studios also take better care with their HD transfers.
 
http://www.latimes.com/technology/l...ties-technology

Mentions that size is everything, and that its not as noticable a difference as VHS to DVD, and yes, of course, LOAD TIMES...

I would say that film is typically harder to judge HD on, I can usually tell by looking at peoples faces, HD gives me pore-quality images, DVD gives me basic shape and shade quality images. For video, on the other hand, its instantly noticable.

But, maybe the load times on our movies :devilish:, will make the load times on our games MORE bearable. :smile:

EDIT: WEB 101 .jpg for photos please, who chose that large a size for images and didn't use jpg/png...
EDIT2: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=667248 (a counterpoint for the LATimes article)
 
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