What's your opinion on Blu-ray technology?

[randycat99]

Oblivion PC Recommended System Requirements:
3 Ghz Intel Pentium 4 or equivalent processor
1 GB System RAM ATI X800 series, NVIDIA GeForce 6800 series, or higher video card
Space Required: 4.6 GB free hard disk space

GRAW
2 GHz Pentium® IV or the equivalent with 1Gb RAM
NVIDIA® GeForce 6/7 or ATI® Radeon® 9600-9800/X
Space Required: 5 GB of hard drive space

Both games have fantastic reviews, are represent technical aspects of next-gen games, and are available today, on dvd or cds.

They are also 2 key titles earmarked for port to the X360. Don't think for a second the limited optical media of that platform didn't weigh in on the "optimal" size target for game development. If you are budgeting a game, and the limiting factor in all platforms you intend to publish to is DVD, is there any question you design to what will fit on a single DVD layer or multiples of that single layer? You could certainly budget for a second development phase to cut down textures and levels as needed to later fit on an X360 disc, but that then pulls all sorts of (unnecessary) negative connotations with it. Might as well spare all of that trouble and just design to a "universal size" for the game from the start.

Hence the size of these games are not a definitive indicator of what natural size a game would be irrespective of media size. They are just as easily an indicator of what comfortable size the game will be given the target format- DVD.

 

[NANOTEC]

No, I claimed that I'm pretty sure it does not exist so it was not a claim about every company.

It was a bold claim on your part and not based on any real knowledge of what other companies are doing. It was based on you and your company only.

Textures don't have to be static images. Furthermore when you have lighting, it changes the appearance of your textures.

Nobody said textures had to be static. The majority of texture work for games are static 2d textures not animated textures. BTW what does lighting have anything to do with compressing textures? That's like saying lighting affects the appearance of 3d models..uh well yeah. It would be kinda funny if games had no lights.

Do your images deal with dynamic lighting? I thought you worked at photo lab or something?

Again what does dynamic lighting have anything to do with compressing textures? What is the purpose of knowing whether or not I work(ed) at a photolab?

And no I will not explain how our tool works. It's propritary and will stay that way. Do you see Nintendo giving their competitiors information on how their controller works?

Maybe we should get back on topic...

 

[wco81]

IMHO HD-DVD and Blu-Ray aren't the best optical format successors to DVD. All you get is increase in size, but no real performance boost in speed.

Is this always going to be the case though?

Did the first DVD-ROM drives support 16x reads or whatever the fastest drives are now? No it took several years.

Is there some reason to believe these formats, if they exist long enough, won't hit higher speeds?

Don't they at a given rotation speed already support much higher transfer than DVD at the same speed?

 

[superguy]

I think it's crap.

Why?

 

[Ty]

It was a bold claim on your part and not based on any real knowledge of what other companies are doing. It was based on you and your company only.

Of course, which is why I said, "I'm pretty sure." Of course when I ask about your tool, you won't answer even the simplest of questions about it.

Nobody said textures had to be static.

Then why did you state that earlier?

The majority of texture work for games are static 2d textures not animated textures.

Yes, absolutely.

BTW what does lighting have anything to do with compressing textures? That's like saying lighting affects the appearance of 3d models..uh well yeah. It would be kinda funny if games had no lights.

Then one needs to pay attention to how lossy compression will affect their assets. One simply can't hit a button and automagically things still look great and are tiny in size.

Again what does dynamic lighting have anything to do with compressing textures? What is the purpose of knowing whether or not I work(ed) at a photolab?

Then it might illustrate that your tool may not be easily applicable to games. That's all.

And no I will not explain how our tool works. It's propritary and will stay that way. Do you see Nintendo giving their competitiors information on how their controller works?

I have to admit, I'm beginning to doubt if your tool exists. Here's why. Earlier you inferred that such a tool is trivial but now you won't explain what it's doing. So if it's a trivial idea, then why can't you simply explain what it's doing? It's really just to see if it can be applied to games or not like you are claiming. I'm not trying to crucify you so you can relax.

Why you continue to argue rationally with this nanotec person is beyond me. He has clearly shown that he is not in the industry, his arguments are weak, and the coherency of his arguments is simply shameful.

Its a dev's word versus that of a person who cant even make logical arguments (read earlier in this thread). I say we move on to another point already.

The funny thing is that I truly hold the belief that all rationale beings can come to some sort of understanding (which is why I hang out in the RSPC forum as well). So yes, I still hold onto this fleeting idea for PC-Engine. If I didn't, I would just tell Neeyik that he's back, breaking his ban for the 3rd time.

 

[NANOTEC]

Then why did you state that earlier?

Where did I state every texture needed to be 2d static textures? When I said textures are static I'm talking about the common form of the word used to describe textures. If someone says textures and doesn't say 3d or animated then they're likely talking about 2d static textures. Yes or No?

Then one needs to pay attention to how lossy compression will affect their assets. One simply can't hit a button and automagically things still look great and are tiny in size.

Actually one can depending on how much experience one has on the matter. You talk as if you know everything which you obviously don't.

Then it might illustrate that your tool may not be easily applicable to games. That's all.

Maybe not your game and your company. Who are you to declare what my company and I are doing?

I have to admit, I'm beginning to doubt if your tool exists. Here's why. Earlier you inferred that such a tool is trivial but now you won't explain what it's doing. So if it's a trivial idea, then why can't you simply explain what it's doing? It's really just to see if it can be applied to games or not like you are claiming. I'm not trying to crucify you so you can relax.

And I have to admit you're spending too much time interogating anonymous online entities. You seem to have a problem getting "NO" as an answer. As for trivial, what I'm doing is trivial that's what separates commonsense from uncommonsense. If everything in the world was equal and everything was trivial to everyone, we wouldn't need a patent system. You're asking for a free lunch and I'm telling you there's no free lunch.

The funny thing is that I truly hold the belief that all rationale beings can come to some sort of understanding (which is why I hang out in the RSPC forum as well). So yes, I still hold onto this fleeting idea for PC-Engine. If I didn't, I would just tell Neeyik that he's back, breaking his ban for the 3rd time.

I'm flattered that you have complete confidence in your assertion that I'm the infamous PC-Engine. I'll give you $100 if you can somehow prove this. Until then keep on perpetuating this belief. All rational behings can come to some sort of understanding.

 

[London Geezer]

The funny thing is that I truly hold the belief that all rationale beings can come to some sort of understanding (which is why I hang out in the RSPC forum as well). So yes, I still hold onto this fleeting idea for PC-Engine. If I didn't, I would just tell Neeyik that he's back, breaking his ban for the 3rd time.

Nanotec IS PC-Engine and yes, that means that he "came back" even though he was banned at least once, insulting our intelligence and the intelligence of whoever banned him, thinking that a different name would be enough for us to think he's a different person.

I'll give you $100 if you can somehow prove this.

Typical PC-Engine answer. Obviously it would be out of this world if you posted in a different PC since you were PC-Engine!
Remember it only took years to get rid of you when you were PC-Engine, only because the mods couldn't. As soon as they got the powers, you were gone in a couple of weeks.

 

[rabidrabbit]

Sorry for the off-topic, but It's funny how you really can recognise people by their writing style.
The structuring of writing, often used words, and of course opinions and the way to respond is almost like a fingerprint and I think it would be against the odds if there were two people on the same forums with virtually identical style.

Ok, my opinion about Blu-ray.
It's a well enough thought out technology that's better suited to movies, games and data storage than HD-DVD.

Btw, did the Blu-ray "backpedal" (for lack of better word ) to include other video codecs like H.264 in addition to MPEG-2 because there might be Blu-ray discs with additional content in for example the H.264 format that could be transferred to future video iPods and PSP like devices?
I know the current PMPs are pretty much stopgap devices before the multi hundred gigabyte hard disc portable media players (MHGHDPMP) arrive, but as thechnology is what it is today, we can't wait forever.
Anyway, I don't see how someone could think more codecs for Blu-ray could be counted as a negative for the BD camp.

 

[NANOTEC]

I've seen quite a few posters here posting in similar style to mine. In fact sometimes I need to take a second look. As far as PC-Engine is concerned, he probably go banned for his rash style of posting which incited arguments. I don't think it had anything to do with mods having banning power like some here like to believe.

Nanotec IS PC-Engine and yes, that means that he "came back" even though he was banned at least once, insulting our intelligence and the intelligence of whoever banned him, thinking that a different name would be enough for us to think he's a different person.

If that were the case, shouldn't I be banned by now? it seems the years I've been lurking here, it's apparent that not much have changed eg london-boy does his best to contribute to derailing threads...where's jvd?

 

[rabidrabbit]

Years? But you've just registered 09-Feb-2006 ?
Are you saying you've lurked here for years without registering, even though there's obvious advantages in registering even if you didn't plan on ever posting.
I would think it is very inconvenient to lurk for years if you don't see what threads you've already read, if there are new posts in an interesting thread, especially if one is even remotely active lurker.
Ok, that'll be enough for me on this issue. I guess the mods have soon their hands full in purging yet another derailed thread (of which I apologize to taking part of).
Let's give the mods a well deserved rest before The Gates to the Fair of Electornic Gaiety open and the hideous monsters emerge here at masses again.

 

[Jabbah]

Then one needs to pay attention to how lossy compression will affect their assets. One simply can't hit a button and automagically things still look great and are tiny in size.

Actually one can depending on how much experience one has on the matter. You talk as if you know everything which you obviously don't.

Im sure there are tools that allow you to hit a button and compress all your assets however, such automated tools will never give you the best quality and highest compression for each individual asset. Every texture will need different levels of compression to achieve a subjective level of quality with optimal size, something an automated tool just cannot do well. Textures also need to be checked while in use for compression artifacts. Are you trying to say an automated tool can load an object with say base, specular and normal maps and subjectively tell if compression artifacts are apparent?

As I said, I believe such tools will exist to compress a large amount of assets at the click of a button but to believe that these will give you optimal compression and good quality is dangerous.

 

[NANOTEC]

Im sure there are tools that allow you to hit a button and compress all your assets however, such automated tools will never give you the best quality and highest compression for each individual asset. Every texture will need different levels of compression to achieve a subjective level of quality with optimal size, something an automated tool just cannot do well. Textures also need to be checked while in use for compression artifacts. Are you trying to say an automated tool can load an object with say base, specular and normal maps and subjectively tell if compression artifacts are apparent?

As I said, I believe such tools will exist to compress a large amount of assets at the click of a button but to believe that these will give you optimal compression and good quality is dangerous.

Actually you're correct, but like I said it takes years of experience to be able to know what kind of outoput you'll be getting so you need to adjust the compression parameters before you click that magic button. There's not much hand tuning required if you've been doing it for years like I have.

 

[Legend]

Just want to add something to the notion that BD movie/TV releases will be seeing more content:

I don’t think so. I want to that a BD TV series will have a full season on one disk and movies will have two or three versions (sequels, old/original version, etc.) and the likes. But I am discouraged from thinking so. Looking at DVD releases now, I only get three anime episodes. When I buy the same title from Asia (China, Thiland, etc.), I get 6 or more episodes per DVD. A full season takes up 9 DVDs while it only takes 4 or 5 from there. Since I prefer subtitles, the audio language is irrelevant to me.

So although more episodes could fit in a BD, I don’t see the number of disks going that low. Maybe they’ll fit 5 episodes per BD this time.
I hope I am being too pessimistic.

 

[-tkf-]

Blu Ray has my support for the sole reason of being a superior format.

When it comes to storage it´s very easy to pick the superior format, 30GB vs 50GB?

Costs doesn´t matter in the long run, but 40% more storage does..

And it looks like every bit will be usefull, this is from the first batch of HD-DVD Titles:

Last Samurai:
VC-1: 1080P, 18 Mbps avg, 24 Mbps peak
Dolby Digital-Plus: English 5.1, 640 Kbps 16 bit/48 kHz

Phantom:
VC-1: 1080P, 15 Mbps avg, 21 Mbps peak
Dolby True HD: English 5.1, 1.6 Mbps average and 3 Mbps peak, 16 bit/48 kHz
Dolby Digital-Plus: English 5.1, 640 Kbps 16 bit/48 kHz

Serenity:
VC-1: 1080p, 16 Mbps avg, 24 Mbps peak
Dolby Digital Plus: English 5.1, 1.5 Mbps, 16 bit/48 kHz

 

[rabidrabbit]

What qualifies as "few" and "token"?
If less than half of the BD movies are released on 50GB discs? If 2/3rds of movies are released on 50GB discs? in not every single movie is not released on 50GB discs?

I don't think there yet is much evidence what will be the ratio of 25GB/50GB movie discs.
As it is, form the announced titles, it's stretching it a bit to say they're just "few token titles". Maybe there'll be similar phenomenon as with DVD's, that there'll be the standard 25 GB movie disc plus a 50GB "Limited 50GB Special Edition" with possibly better sound and video plus more extras, a little like there is today those one disc releases along with the two disc "Special Edition".

 

[NANOTEC]

You have no clue about how much BD50 movies will be out , so it is useless trying to guess they will be only a few.

What we know for sure is that if they have alredy announced some BD50 movies the cost is not excessive now , let alone in the future.

What this have to do with games ?

Muhahaha, it is pretty obvious, it have to do in term of disc costs .

Actually we do know. There are only two BD50 movies coming out of about 100 BD25 movies that are planned to release this year.

 

[supervegeta]

Actually we do know. There are only two BD50 movies coming out of about 100 BD25 movies that are planned to release this year.

No we don't know , othervise post a link to the official press release of every movie studios stating they will not release BD50 movies.

 

[-tkf-]

What does HD DVD have to do with this thread?

Everything?

 

[NANOTEC]

No we don't know , othervise post a link to the official press release of every movie studios stating they will not release BD50 movies.

Actually we do maybe except you. Go visit AVS forum and read up.

Everything?

The thread asks what's your opinion on BR technology. It didn't as for your opinion on HD DVD. Unless you want to turn this thread into another HD DVD vs BR thread, may I suggest keeping to the topic.

 

[supervegeta]

Actually we do maybe except you. Go visit AVS forum and read up.

Muhahaha so no official press release ?

You are delusional.