UC4: Best looking gameplay? *SPOILS*

[Recop]

Doom has different constraints from UC4 technically. That is a fact. Whether it's on another level is an opinion.

The lighting model can afford to be much simpler, as scene makeup is mostly a classical blend of static opaques plus simple transparencies, even including character models. There's less in Doom's environments which would be prone to unavoidable overdraw issues, such as dense foliage. Doom also features far less dynamic interaction with such things, which has real-time processing implications along with its own design constraints. Etc.

Doom picked a smaller technical scope and did things very well within it.

Wrong, Uncharted 4 should run at 60fps... Doom does everything better at 60fps...

Doom has no technical flaws such as simplistic geometry, texture popping/quality, very low resolution effects, static environnements, discutable PBR, etc.

Also, Doom had a much bigger budget than Uncharted 4 and isn't a multi platform game. In these conditions, it is obviously technically better.

 

[Warchild]

Full LOD spectrum of Drake with best gameplay lighting in the whole game. Extreme camera dolly and fov.

I notice the watch disappearing at a far distance.

And here is a comparison of NBA Live 2016 demo

non photo-mode shot: As you see during realtime it doesn't look good at all.

It's incredible how the character model compares to nba, skin definition looks better. However i do like the iq of nba much better than uncharted even though it still has some jaggies. Anyone know what aa solution nba live 2016 uses? It seems to retain detail much much better at farther distances during gameplay than uncharted which looks either overly sharpened or somewhat blurry.

 

[HTupolev]

Just because the scale is smaller doesn't mean it's not doing things better.

To clarify, I'm not talking about the size of the game world; I'm talking about the range of sorts of things that are being accomplished.

whether they were afforded all those niceties because of a smaller scope is a different discussion.

Earlier in the thread, you were one of the folks battling to have cutscene shots banned from the discussion, as the constraints made them unfair for comparing things.

But now that issues of constraints run counter to your stance, you're claiming that it doesn't matter.

 

[rockaman]

@Warchild those are really excellent LOD comparisons! Must have taken a bit to put that together, very nice

NBA Live demo is very impressive. I like what EA does with graphics in their sports games (though I don't actually buy them ^^), they use lots of very sharp details and shaders and nice effects with DOF. I find the graphics much better than NBA 2K16, which I think overall is technically probably behind, though they both are good looking games.

The NHL 15 demo is also very impressive on PS4, I'm not sure if it is still available though. FIFA 16 demo looks pretty good too, but I prefer the graphics in NHL and NBA EA games.

I wish they had a Madden demo on PS4 lol

Another interesting comparison would be to MLB The Show 15/16, but I do not have this game. It's very visually impressive, especially with character models and nice field/grass visuals.

 

[Scott_Arm]

Do we have any examples of chest-hair lod for doom, with varying lighting conditions and distances?

 

[Recop]

The SSR in DOOM has seldom this noticeable blending and it reflects GPU Particles.
Particles recieve shadows also from light sources like area or spot lights.

Your claims aren't supported by this picture (source DF).

Maybe it's even better because there is no shimmering while the game is full of specular elements

 

[Karamazov]

Do we have any examples of chest-hair lod for doom, with varying lighting conditions and distances?

The Order has lot of hair...

http://i.imgur.com/PBP0vXc.jpg

Everywhere...

http://i.imgur.com/HrEv0ES.jpg

 

[rockaman]

Do we have any examples of chest-hair lod for doom, with varying lighting conditions and distances?

I bet DOOM guy has a hairy chest, if only he could take off that armour and get it shaved once in a while.

Does DOOM guy even take showers?

 

[VFX_Veteran]

To clarify, I'm not talking about the size of the game world; I'm talking about the range of sorts of things that are being accomplished.

UC4, imo, doesn't offer significantly more scene complexity to other games of it's kind (i.e. Tomb Raider/QB), so I disagree that it has so much going on. However, we certainly shouldn't compare Witcher 3/MGS5 to UC4 either, and yet, people still do. If I came up with the comment "Witcher 3 looks better than UC4!", the PS4 fans on here would jump all over it regardless whether one it is an open-ended game with dynamic weather/night/day cycles and one is mostly static.

Earlier in the thread, you were one of the folks battling to have cutscene shots banned from the discussion, as the constraints made them unfair for comparing things.

But now that issues of constraints run counter to your stance, you're claiming that it doesn't matter.

I'm claiming that the two games shouldn't be compared. Just like cutscenes shouldn't be misconstrued as gameplay. But seeing as someone did mention DOOM (Jupiter), I felt compelled to reply.

 

[rockaman]

What is significantly more scene complexity? Can we define this? Do I need to call a lawyer or a paralegal?

When you make a statement there should be some reasonable expectation of you justifying what you are saying, and the better you can justify the statement, either with further and hopefully somewhat concrete explanations, even better with examples, the more inclined anyone will be with agreeing with you, or at the very least taking your input/critiques more seriously.

Which is the only reason why I posted so many images claiming that "Before Chapter 13 the graphics aren't very impressive." Not because I am right when I disagree, but I can offer great examples of why I don't think this is the case that are easily reviewable. At least in this way we have examples to review and people can make up their mind based on concrete examples, not just comparatively vague drive-by descriptions of "well that effect ain't that good" or "this is inconsistent" or etc etc... get what I mean? Lol.

Now when you claim, currently, that you don't believe UC4 does not offer significantly more scene complexity than Tomb Raider or Quantum Break, there is some onus on you to explain what that means, so this has meaning to more people other than yourself.

After all, that is the purpose of a conversation, no? If we are not explaining our positions more in detail, there can be no additional understanding of your POV.

Also, no need to go down the "but fanboy!" rabbit hole.

 

[Jupiter]

Your claims aren't supported by this picture (source DF).

Someone made even a gfycat about it: https://gfycat.com/PastSlushyKrill

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=203595678&postcount=302

 

[Warchild]

@Warchild those are really excellent LOD comparisons! Must have taken a bit to put that together, very nice

NBA Live demo is very impressive. I like what EA does with graphics in their sports games (though I don't actually buy them ^^), they use lots of very sharp details and shaders and nice effects with DOF. I find the graphics much better than NBA 2K16, which I think overall is technically probably behind, though they both are good looking games.

The NHL 15 demo is also very impressive on PS4, I'm not sure if it is still available though. FIFA 16 demo looks pretty good too, but I prefer the graphics in NHL and NBA EA games.

I wish they had a Madden demo on PS4 lol

Another interesting comparison would be to MLB The Show 15/16, but I do not have this game. It's very visually impressive, especially with character models and nice field/grass visuals.

Thank you. I got some old shots from the nhl demo I can post later. The character models don't look great but the lighting and shaders remind me of those old clean ea sports cg trailers.

 

[rockaman]

Thank you. I got some old shots from the nhl demo I can post later. The character models don't look great but the lighting and shaders remind me of those old clean cg trailers.

Totally, that's exactly what I love the graphics in that game

Great demo, don't even need to buy the full game because of it ^^

Unfortunately, the NBA Live 16 demo had a launching expiry... it is on my HDD but I cannot launch it anymore lol

Someone made even a gfycat about it: https://gfycat.com/PastSlushyKrill

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=203595678&postcount=302

Killzone Shadowfall also has these effects, in singleplayer and multiplayer. Great looking games, I am a big fan of SSR, though it has funny limitations, and also particle effect shadows ^^

DriveClub also uses it excellently, same with that game, there is shadow casting from the particles, and also I think reflections from the particles (not sure on the second part, I'd have to check again).

I think maybe Mafia 2 also has particle effect shadows but I have to go back and check that.

 

[VFX_Veteran]

It's just your opinion... and your opinion doesn't have a great value to me since you have been proven wrong so many times on factual things... for instance, you said that Uncharted 4 screenshots were downsampled in the photomode while they were not.

Never claimed they were downsampled. They are downsampled when viewing them in a forum unless you zoom in to actual size. In any case, I own UC4 and while it has fairly clean imagery, there is enough undersampling that you can see aliasing.

And the AA in Uncharted has to deal with much more complex issues : huge amount of foliage, thin details everywhere.

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think realtime AA works on a per object basis. I'd imagine AA performance is independent of scene complexity and more dependent on resolution since it's done in screenspace.

 

[rockaman]

The Order has lot of hair...

http://i.imgur.com/PBP0vXc.jpg

Everywhere...

http://i.imgur.com/HrEv0ES.jpg

Lol @ the second picture

 

[Recop]

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think realtime AA works on a per object basis. I'd imagine AA performance is independent of scene complexity and more dependent on resolution since it's done in screenspace.

Really ? What about ROTR ?

 

[VFX_Veteran]

What is significantly more scene complexity? Can we define this? Do I need to call a lawyer or a paralegal?

<snip>

After all, that is the purpose of a conversation, no? If we are not explaining our positions more in detail, there can be no additional understanding of your POV.

I assume we all have knowledge of basic 3D graphics otherwise why would we be conversating on a strictly 3D graphics forum? If I have to define every single aspect of the 3D pipeline, I'll quickly get exhausted.

UC4, you move from point A to point B with a couple of ways to get there. Madagascar is a perfect example of an appearingily wide open area, but when you actually play the level, what you see, you can't actually travel to. On top of that, there is nothing in the world roaming having it's own AI except a couple of monkeys that skimper away. You play games like W3 or FCrimal and you see a LOT more going on within the same view frustrum. Scene complexity to me is not just several pieces of geometry (instanced sprite cards seem inexpensive too), but how the lighting works, how complex are the pixel shaders, volumes, sprites that receive illumination, any deformation or tessellation from a normal map, etc..?

 

[Jupiter]

I think maybe Mafia 2 also has particle effect shadows but I have to go back and check that.

More games have particle shadows from direct sun light. But not from spot or area lights. Alien: Isolation does also has trough spot light casted particle shadows.

 

[Recop]

Someone made even a gfycat about it: https://gfycat.com/PastSlushyKrill

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=203595678&postcount=302

I don't see any reflection, just the particles bouncing on the ground.

 

[rockaman]

I assume we all have knowledge of basic 3D graphics otherwise why would we be conversating on a strictly 3D graphics forum? If I have to define every single aspect of the 3D pipeline, I'll quickly get exhausted.

UC4, you move from point A to point B with a couple of ways to get there. Madagascar is a perfect example of an appearingily wide open area, but when you actually play the level, what you see, you can't actually travel to. On top of that, there is nothing in the world roaming having it's own AI except a couple of monkeys that skimper away. You play games like W3 or FCrimal and you see a LOT more going on within the same view frustrum. Scene complexity to me is not just several pieces of geometry (instanced sprite cards seem inexpensive too), but how the lighting works, how complex are the pixel shaders, volumes, sprites that receive illumination, any deformation or tessellation from a normal map, etc..?

Hmm, well I'll disagree with that then.

I think you are underrating the space provided by Madagascar, and probably overrating the comparable scene complexity from say TR or QB. I have played TR 2013 and ROTR, and I wouldn't call the scene complexity necessarily very close, technically. When you use the term "comparable" is very different to close or equal, anything is technically "comparable."

So again, I have to insist that you bring some examples here of ROTR and QB that make your position more convincing. I think those of us who are saying UC4 is "better looking" relatively compared to those are not have simply at least brought forth more "evidence" to their claims. So I can only ask the same of those who are claiming in opposition to this opinion to equally provide some examples.

Is this or is this not a fair request? We are trying to be impartial, are we not? We have also placed many scrutinizing requirements on the way screenshots from UC4 can be provided, so I should assume the similar requirements will have to be applied to games we are comparing to UC4.

Again, the onus is on you to bring examples and defend your position in this debate, pictures are more valuable than words, is it not, in a graphics discussion?

I don't see any reflection, just the particles bouncing on the ground.

The explosion of the grenade is reflected in the ground as SSR, similar to Killzone Shadowfall.

The other extra sparks are not though. But it is still a nice effect

 

[Recop]

What is significantly more scene complexity? Can we define this?

An example here : "It was amazingly complicated to get this to work. Our programmers had to touch or rewrite nearly every system in the game from the player control to objects to collision to enemies and allies AI... Taking the leap to do something like this took a lot of tenacity and courage, and we had to keep going even when it felt like an impossible task, but it paid off in countless ways - from the collapsing hotel to the convoy, Uncharted 2 was able to stand out of the crowd and wow our players with things they'd never seen before."

(Uncharted 2 train scene)

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-among-friends-how-naughty-dog-built-uncharted-2

The chase scene in Uncharted 4 is a step higher

And there is nothing like that in Doom