The real battle isn't DS vs. PSP...

Teasy said:
There's a computer fair held every month near me. A friend went one month and said they had PSPs and DS's on import (in the UK). Next month I went with him to check them out.
Anecdotal evidence is worthless in proving an argument..
I'd hardly say it's worthless. Sometimes that's the only evidence available. It's better to back a point of view with some sort of evidence where possible. ie. It'd be daft for me to think DS will outsell PSP 10:1 when my experience, limited though it is, shows otherwise.

Just because my sales figures (some 10:1 demand at the Computer Fair) don't come from a statistics gathering firm, doesn't make them any less valid than the weekly posting on this forum!

Again anyone who thinks that everyone would choose a PSP over a DS is totally fooling themselves to an amazing degree :) Its not all about shiny shine aesthetics you know.
To a lot of people, it is. That's where Sony have the advantage. You see how much the demand for PS2 hiked when Sony shrunk it?! There's a lot of crap and overpriced goods sold on the merit of coolness, not functionality.

I would say it's a dead certainty 'which people will chose when comparing the two systems side by side in stores' - at least the majority. DS will appeal, especially to the many, many GB owners out there.
So your saying that DS will appeal to the massive majority of the handheld market then? (the hundred million+ GB owners out their) ;)
Yes! I expect them to upgrade and take over their GBA collection. However, with 100 million GB owners out there, that leaves some 1,900 million NON-GB owners who have no back catalogue or upgrade path (ignoring the other 2/3 of the world's population who are more concerned with other things)...

Sales in Japan suggest PSPs appeal on average is greater than DSs, now that new product releases are behind us and sales have rather settled into relatively constant weekly patterns. Add to this my readings and experiences, where lifestyle mags and so forth have hyped up PSP more than DS from what I've seen. Add to this my common sense perceptions of how markets work and what does and does not appeal to people, common sense perceptions backed by anecdotal evidence. Altogether I make the conclusion that with both DS and PSP sat in a store showing themselves off, PSP will garner the most attention, and in the long run PSP will outsell DS. Do you have any evidence to the contrary?
 
PC-Engine said:
How many people are mentally stable and willing to walk around with their portable DVD player and MP3 player and portable console so they can do all those things, should they feel the need to do either one of them?

You keep ignoring the point I've been hammering into your *cough* brain. In the course of ONE DAY????

People don't carry 7 separate devices in the course of ONE DAY because people hardly ever want to use 7 devices in ONE DAY. Only weirdos/losers/retards need to use 7 devices in ONE DAY.
Okay, I'm gonna write this and then I'll leave. Why you need to insult people over a different idea of what's valuable or not, I dunno, but that's the behaviour of purile gaming forums and not Beyond3D which I visit for it's intelligent content and debate.

How many people took around a camera to photograph their friends at a party, and then emailed those pics to their mates? Not many. But when the functionality was added to mobile phones, people used it. Likewise Texting was added a side-thought, without the phone companies ever realizing how it would take off. If you provide a feature, even if people have never used it before, chances are they'll adapt their behaviour to use it now it's provided.

It's coming up to Summer. My friends and I will be out enjoying the nice weather, picnics, trips out to the countryside, like we do every year. Maybe this year we'll also have the fun of geocaching on our PSPs, stopping off at a pub with a drink and a quick game of football on our PSPs, and then on the trip home I could listen to MP3's on my PSP. If I go abroad this year I can watch a movie *I* want on my PSP instead of the in flight effort, and play some games on my PSP. If I go to Japan, I could pick up their TalkMan translation software and use my PSP for translation too. All in one device.

If you'd rather have 7 specialist devices and limit what you can do by what you care to carry, fine. I've no problem with that. If me wanting to have more entertainment options on hand with just one device makes me a Retard, I'd rather be retarded, happy and tolerant, than trying to belittle those who disagree with me by likening them to people suffering from a medical condition that society as a whole can't comfortably relate to.
 
How many people took around a camera to photograph their friends at a party, and then emailed those pics to their mates? Not many. But when the functionality was added to mobile phones, people used it. Likewise Texting was added a side-thought, without the phone companies ever realizing how it would take off. If you provide a feature, even if people have never used it before, chances are they'll adapt their behaviour to use it now it's provided.

Did you somehow overlook my post that completely nullifies your cellphone analogy? Most people who own a cellphone, carry it with them everyday so having a camera makes a lot of sense.

Does spending over $200 for a 512MB memory stick to listen to MP3s on a HUGE MP3 player when you can get a $100 flash player the size of pack of gum make any sense at all? Sure it makes sense for a handful of people but that's not the point. The point is it makes no sense at all for the majority of people out there. This has nothing to do with what I personally prefer.
 
And it has been said over and over again that people who won't need that much space for music on PSP won't buy a 512MB MS Duo. The people who do, will buy it.

Having the option to play music and movies though, that is the main point. If one doens't need to, of course he won't do anything about it, but if he does, then he will have to decide whether to take his PSP, MP3 player and portable DVD or just his PSP. He might be a weirdo/retard or whatever you very intelligently said he would be for wanting to do those things in one day (GOD FORBID!! I MEAN HE COULD GET A BRAIN TUMOUR!), but having the option to choose is a good thing.
 
Shifty Geezer

I didn't say anecdotal evidence is worthless, only that its worthless for proving an argument. Also I don't think aesthetics aren't a factor, but they are not THE factor.

Yes! I expect them to upgrade and take over their GBA collection. However, with 100 million GB owners out there, that leaves some 1,900 million NON-GB owners

How many of those 1.9 billion will even be gamers never mind interested in a $250 handheld? Personally I'm sure PSP is going to do very well. But IMO your not painting a great picture for it there.

Sales in Japan suggest PSPs appeal on average is greater than DSs, now that new product releases are behind us and sales have rather settled into relatively constant weekly patterns.

DS and PSP have been out in Japan for the same amount of time now (give or take a week in 15) and DS has sold twice what PSP has sold in that time. You can talk about sales settling down into a constant weekly pattern but it means nothing while PSP's userbase is still so small. If PSP matches DS's userbase and is still outselling it then I will agree with you.

Altogether I make the conclusion that with both DS and PSP sat in a store showing themselves off, PSP will garner the most attention, and in the long run PSP will outsell DS. Do you have any evidence to the contrary?

How could I have evidence that PSP won't outsell DS in the long run?, I'm not a time traveller. Neither are you and you have no evidence either. Also if both systems were put up in a totally random shopping centre then I'd be hard pressed to guess accruately how much attention each would get. But I'm not going to argue with you if you think PSP would usually get more. That's a long way from what I was arguing against, which was the opinion that if DS and PSP were side by side then only long time Nintendo loyalists would choose a DS....
 
PC-Engine said:
....
Does spending over $200 for a 512MB memory stick to listen to MP3s on a HUGE MP3 player when you can get a $100 flash player the size of pack of gum make any sense at all? ....
I would just like to correct because you're again twisting the numbers to make it look more negative than it is in reality.

For over €200 you'd get a 2GB Memory Stick DUO Pro.
A 512MB Memory Stick costs about €60
A 1GB Memory Stick costs about €120

The prices are in euros 'cos that's what I was able to find easiest, but I believe in dollars they'd be about the same.

So, spending an additional €60 makes a little more sense than €200, doesn't it?
 
Just some american prices

512 meg duo at best buy is 90$ for the san disk or whatever the company is . The sony brand is 105$

The 1 gig san disk is about 150$ that is the san disk one . dunno about the sony one can't find it anywhere
 
I would just like to correct because you're again twisting the numbers to make it look more negative than it is in reality.

Perhaps he meant a 512MByte stick?, since those are the same kind of size as the cheap flash MP3 players you can buy.

512Mbit (64Mbytes) is kind of pathetic for an MP3 player, even 1Gbit (128Mbytes) is extremely small. Especially for the price you'd have the pay for them.
 
PC-Engine said:
hey69 said:
yeah my mobile phone can too play games, play moviez and play mp3's but it is a bitch to use it that way.

the psp is very good in what it can.
the mp3 sound playback is very VERY nice
the movie playback is is very VERY nice!

you ever saw that screen?

My portable DVD player has a 7" widescreen, and the picture is very VERY nice.

My portable flash MP3/OGG/WAV/WMA player is 1GB, is the size of a lighter which I can wear around my neck, has built-in FM radio, built-in voice recording, built-in clock, direct MP3/line in encoding, 5 band EQ, and can be used as a USB flash drive. The sound quality is very VERY nice.

Shifty Geezer said:
PC-Engine said:
Are you hearing what you're saying here? You're talking about buying a GPS addon, a 512MB MS addon, yadda yadda. At the end of the day you've spent over $500. You are aware that a 512MB flash player can be found for around $100 and can also be used as a flash drive right? How much is a 512MB MS DUO by itself? :LOL:
It's still worth all that in one device, instead of maybe saving a few bucks and having to carry a rucksack full of gizmos around ;)

Yeah maybe to you and two other people who absolutely NEED to listen to MP3s and play games on a single device in the course of ONE day while spending over $200 for a memory stick alone. I guess you have a difficult time carrying around a small pack of gum or tictacs too. ;)

you have a point off course, but for ME personaly, it will be intresting to take this litle piece of technology to vacation this summer and have my movies and music with me. 2-3 dvd-r's full of mpeg 4 encoded moviez will do me and my wife for the nights when we want to watch something.
i'l take my usb cable with me and pop in a internetshop, use the psp to transfer 2-3 moviez and i'm to watch a movie in my hotelroom.

here in belgium, a portable dvd player with so so screen costs 300euro at minimum . (that's mainly chinese noname brands) so yes for 200 euro i paid for my psp, it's worth a lot for my considering what it can do.

and yes , i have a flash based mp3 player, i'm not going to hang the psp around my neck to listen to music, but i consider it as a mediacenter for moments on vacation and when i'm inside.


edit: I'm going to buy a 1gbyte sandisk pro duo stick, yes it costs 125euro (20%tax included) but you have to see it in total.
325euro for a psp with 1gig storage. (actually, i received my psp sort of free, so yeah it rocks! :p )
 
PC-Engine said:
Did you somehow overlook my post that completely nullifies your cellphone analogy? Most people who own a cellphone, carry it with them everyday so having a camera makes a lot of sense.
I do believe that's the point. Having a extra functionality in a commonly-used-otherwise device will increase the likelihood of ALL the features taking off and being used. Having them in separate devices may provide better support OF those individual features, but it also adds to the cost and more importantly lowers the consumer convenience, so... it doesn't add new users the way another device would--they cater to the existing market and bring new consumers in at a much slower pace. (Basically, those people who take that specific feature more seriously.)

This does not mean the PSP is the ultimate convergence device, as there are other factors to consider (just how well a device supports a feature compared to others, how the costs compare, what extra equipment may be needed...), but the basic concepts are down. And as Belkin can testify, if a device is popular enough it doesn't matter WHAT you make as an add-on... you'll feed those who are wanting it. ;) The popularity of a device can quite EASILY drive the adoption of other peripherals--even if what they bring are built into other devices innately. It allows the mindshare of a device to keep rolling rather than hitting speedbumps, as it's easy for consumers to say "well, I can always pick up XXX later if I really want to..."

Just as the DS will bring PDA functionality to a whole new consumer set, the PSP will bring its portable features to those clamoring for a hot, sexy gaming device that can do a lot of "other stuff" that they may be looking for anyway. If it gets carried along as a gaming machine, the rest get carried along with it. Unless the extra adoption costs are prohibitively expensive (which they do not appear to be), or the ease of consumer adoption specifically ignored (which it also does not appear to be--though it could be better), the other uses will be picked up and carried along. And heck, depending on accessories, the "core unit" could have a HELLUVA lot more appeal. I mean... my iPod can be a laser pointer AND a flashlight, bitches! ;)

Regardless, neither machine is going to trump the GBA/GBA-SP for a LONG, long time. While I like that they're not playing to "lowest common denominator gaming," the lowest common denominator that buys the bulk of their units have different opinions. ;)
 
I think you guys are missing a very big point .

Cameras in cell phones took off because they did not change the size of a cell phone . So now instead of carying around a huge camera with you all the time you have just your cell phone. NOtice however that even a crappy digital camera is better than a cell phone camera .

Cell phones with mp3 playback will also take off because the size of the phone will not change .


In all cases the phone is very small and can easily fit in your pocket .

This is not the case with the psp and one of the two devices it would replace can not only do the same thing cheaper but its also much much smaller .


I'm sorry but the music and video is jsut a gimic to get people to buy it and the number of people who use those features for anything more than a rare ocasion is going to be so small it will make the virtual boy user base look huge
 
Good point jvd. :)

Not to mention cellphones are carried with the person all the time so the extra functions whatever they are, are always there. MP3 playback on cellphones are a good idea, but right now the battery life of cellphones isn't good enough for people to use that function beyond half an hour because it cuts into the battery reserves for the phone function which is more important. A camera function OTOH doesn't use that much power since people won't be taking many pictures with their phones. Of course since these integrated cameras are getting higher resolution with removable SD storage etc., people might even use it for extensive picture taking during trips etc. too, which will then require them to buy extra battery packs for their cellphones.
 
jvd said:
This is not the case with the psp and one of the two devices it would replace can not only do the same thing cheaper but its also much much smaller .
...and the other device is much larger and not precisely "cheaper" either. MP3 playing has already taken off, and the PSP won't "replace" any of that. ...but it will with reasonable likelihood make PSP owners not worry so much about getting one (or a new one)--certainly one that's flash-based--if the PSP they carry around ANYWAY can play things just fine.

What it DOES augment, however, is portable video playing. While I've seen many people carrying a GBA around randomly--and even watching the movies on them (kids at an IHOP while waiting for food, to keep them quiet while mom is shopping, in the car while going to and fro--those have been my main witnessings so far)--I have NEVER seen anyone randomly lugging about a portable DVD player and watching it "here and there" about town. On an airplane flight, sure--you've got a tray to sit it on and hours to spare, but no one just randomly carries one around with them on their normal day's activities. A game machine, though--whether we're talking about GBA, DS, PSP, or otherwise--will usually accompany the owner wherever, and that means that the ease or watching "stuff" has been much lowered, and the desire to much raised. The PSP will have the added boost right now, however, of bringing people's personally-created videos with them, rather than only what's commercially available (and therefore what also "costs them additional cash" and reduces consumer desire). UMD doesn't stand much chance right now considering the prices they're trying to collect for it, but the personalized content will by far extend the appeal of just "bringing the PSP out and watching something."

I do agree, though, that once phones build in decent MP3 playing as well, fewer people will use their PSP for it. They're smaller, more convenient, and heck--you've already got or at least WANT the headset for it. ;) That will also be a standard at some point, but regardless for the PSP MP3 playing is an "also-ran." It would be stupid to exclude, can be handled well, and for the time being people will use their PSP instead... but it's not a huge draw. (The PSP, though, could play around with other options like the iPod Photo does, showing off album covers, and throw into the mix artist information, and if they're smart--teh vidoes! :p The PSP has screen space to spare, so if people are going to look at the screen while listening to songs, you need to give them lots to look at, or they'll shrug that off too.)

...but since it's an also-ran, what might the PSP run WITH? Portable video playing has been very shruggable up until now, and we're really only now starting to see devices that can deliver it strongly--and hopefully more appealingly to the mainstream audience. Digital cameras have been rolling it in, and certainly PDA's have had the capabilities... but I still rarely see anyone pull out a machine out of habit to watch something while they're sitting around in line, or going somewhere on the bus... Perhaps Apple is ramping up to the iPod Video, and other machines are vying for that slot--but all things considered, the PSP has a good chance of being the first machine to be really noticed--and really accepted--in that department.
 
cthellis42 said:
PC-Engine said:
Did you somehow overlook my post that completely nullifies your cellphone analogy? Most people who own a cellphone, carry it with them everyday so having a camera makes a lot of sense.
I do believe that's the point. Having a extra functionality in a commonly-used-otherwise device will increase the likelihood of ALL the features taking off and being used.

People who listen to MP3s on-the-go on a regular basis usually listen everyday or every other day so you won't be seeing people carrying their PSP anyway to listen to MP3s, it's too big. OTOH on those days where they decide to take their PSPs with them to play games, they might want to listen to MP3s. There's a big difference between the two scenarios. In other words people don't carry their PSPs with them ANYWAY. You're delusional if you actually believe that.

Regarding portable DVD players, people use them on airplanes all the time. They carry them in their carry-ons. People who want to watch a 90min movie don't mind carrying a DVD player around because if you've got 90min to spare then bringing a DVD player along isn't a big deal. People don't carry around a DVD player everyday just like people won't be carrying around a PSP everyday so it's a moot comparision.

BTW listening to music while viewing that HUGE PSP LCD is going to suck your battery big time too. Do you know of any good MP3 players with a 4 hour battery life? :p

Ever heard of the Olympus Mrobe 500? It's a very neat PMP with touch screen and a high MP digital camera with 20G HDD. However when listening to MP3s with the display on it suck power like there's no tommorrow. ;)

http://www.olympusgroove.com/flash.html?//www.olympusgroove.com/
 
PC-Engine said:
People who listen to MP3s on-the-go on a regular basis usually listen everyday or every other day so you won't be seeing people carrying their PSP anyway to listen to MP3s, it's too big.
No, and that's not what I said. And it IS why I said MP3 playing is an also-ran feature for it. What WILL happen is that people who carry their PSP's with them for other reasons--to play games (and potentially to watch assorted video stuff)--will use it to play MP3's (especially if there's a good headphone/remote combo available for it instead of necessarily carrying yet another device with them. If they haven't joined the "MP3 revolution" yet, they may not bother with another device, and if they don't care enough and don't want to carry their collection around with them and cycle through it constantly, there's little reason for them to care otherwise either. It's not going to displace the iPod crowd (and likely not the Shuffle either, as it's both style and amazingly non-bothersome), but it would knock others out of the way simply because of the "why bother?" factor.
OTOH on those days where they decide to take their PSPs with them to play games, they might want to listen to MP3s. There's a big difference between the two scenarios. In other words people don't carry their PSPs with them ANYWAY. You're delusional if you actually believe that.
What? It might be nice if you try reading, as that is exactly what I was talking about: "...if the PSP they carry around ANYWAY can play things just fine." The PSP is no threat for most MP3 playing since it's either cheaper and more convenient, or not as apt for those who take their MP3 playing SERIOUSLY. But those people who are carrying around their PSP's ANYWAY are doing so because they want to play with the PSP. And while nothing will match up to the convenience of a GBA-SP as far as a gaming device goes, the PSP is still perfectly convenient for a portable gaming and video device.

Regarding portable DVD players, people use them on airplanes all the time. They carry them in their carry-ons. People who want to watch a 90min movie don't mind carrying a DVD player around because if you've got 90min to spare then bringing a DVD player along isn't a big deal. People don't carry around a DVD player everyday just like people won't be carrying around a PSP everyday so it's a moot comparision.
OH MY GOD IT'S ALMOST LIKE I GAVE THAT AS THE MAJOR SIDE-POINT IN MY LAST REPLY!

It's not a moot comparison, because the people who will be carrying around a PSP to play with far outnumber the people who carry around a portable DVD player to only watch movies on, which means the video-watching (note, I do not say "movie watching") capabilities of the PSP will also be more widely embraced. As it's not just movies people will want to carry with them, but movies, funny internet stuff, game trailers, webcam recordings, showing photos, etc... All in a much more portable package, and a more desirable one for other reasons. One that is much more likely to be whipped out and looked at when you have 5 minutes to blow instead of 90, to be shared with your friends, used to show off the machine... THAT is what makes a device part of common usage, and it's something that the PSP could succeed at, while a portable DVD players has no chance whatsoever. (As previously stated, the PSP is not the only device that could fill that role, but it's pretty much the earliest and highest-profile one that could. Apple has the mindshare as well, so they'd best come out with a cheap-enough iPod Video quick. ;) Or a good Photo hack! Hehe... Other portable media devices [like that M:robe 500] have not really found a place, so you typically only get it as part of other devices, like PDA's with a good screen, or someone's high-quality digital camera. But those are no the kind of mass-market devices we're talking about, nor are succeeding notably on the marketplace.)
BTW listening to music while viewing that HUGE PSP LCD is going to suck your battery big time too. Do you know of any good MP3 players with a 4 hour battery life?
Yes, because as we all know, everyone who ever uses the MP3 functions of a device does it only at huge stretches without ever being in reach of a socket or bothering to recharge. Oh, and they also love watching music videos for four hours straight without ever getting tired and/or are continually mesmerized by a screen while listening to music. WinAMP Visualizer junkies, all! :rolleyes:

The point is to stress uniqueness and entice people with new things, not to "replace and only consider one option." People might be more likely to carry their PSP around with them as a music player if they could toss a few videos they like on there as well, but it's not like they would be only staring at the screen for hours on end. It would mainly be used as any normal MP3 player would, with the screen to use if you're bored, want to show off, want to catch that song you love "in full glory"... etc. How many people need to go through more than four hours of SCREENLESS MP3 playing operations? You listen on the way to work and back, or going to school and between classes, random wanderings around town... And what do people do if their battery runs out? Well, most people just don't use their device until they get back home and charge it (or replace the battery), and those that care enough...? Well they pretty much carry a spare around with them, and that's true for basically any device no matter HOW much airtime it gives: whether we're talking a cell phone that only gives two hours of airtime, or an MP3 player that gives 30.

I'm curious when everything will stop being "best possible scenario/worst possible scenario" with you. The mass market has FOREVER shown us that their neither know nor care about it.
 
PSP owners will not be carrying their PSPs with them every day or every other day for that matter so what ever non gaming functions it has will not be used often. If it's not used often then it won't be embraced. Very simple really. People use iPods and small flash MP3 players often, that's why they don't mind carrying it with them often. People carry cellphones often because they use them often and whatever non phone functions may also be used often. You can't use something often if you don't carry it often and if you use something often, you don't mind carrying it often. :LOL: ;)

You actually think that if DVD players were smaller people would carry them more often to watch movies more often? The point is people don't watch movies on-the-go often therefore they will not carry around movie players often. Having it as an option on PSP isn't going to change that no matter how much you think it would. It's not a cellphone that you carry with you everyday. It's like saying a 5L V8 gets better gas mileage than a 5.2L V8. IT'S POINTLESS SINCE BOTH ARE GAS GUZZLERS!!! :LOL: ;)
 
PC-Engine said:
PSP owners will not be carrying their PSPs with them every day or every other day for that matter so what ever non gaming functions it has will not be used often. If it's not used often then it won't be embraced. Very simple really. People use iPods and small flash MP3 players often, that's why they don't mind carrying it with them often. People carry cellphones often so whatever non phone functions may be used often. You can't use something often if you don't carry it often. :LOL:

You actually think that if DVD players were smaller people would carry them more often to watch movies more often? The point is people don't watch movies on-the-go often. Having it as an option on PSP isn't going to change that no matter how much you think it would. It's not a cellphone that you carry with you everyday. It's like saying a 5L V8 gets better gas mileage than a 5.2L V8. IT'S POINTLESS SINCE BOTH ARE GAS GUZZLERS!!! :LOL: ;)

It's only pointless if you think in absolutes. They may be both gas guzzlers, but one is more of a gas guzzler than the other. Burnt food may taste bad, and puke may taste bad, but I'll certainly take the burnt food over the puke every time.
 
Then explain to me what is the significance of it? Braggin rights? :LOL:

How many people actually care how much better the gas mileage is on a 5L vs a 5.2L beyond those who like to brag about insignificant numbers like marketing suits or *cough* fanbois?
 
PC-Engine said:
Then explain to me what is the significance of it? Braggin rights? :LOL:

How many people actually care how much better the gas mileage is on a 5L vs a 5.2L beyond those who like to brag about insignificant numbers like marketing suits or *cough* fanbois?

There's no significant difference between a 3.4ghz processor and a 3.6ghz processor, but people still buy the 3.6ghz processor and will pay a large premium for it.
 
PC-Engine said:
PSP owners will not be carrying their PSPs with them every day or every other day for that matter so what ever non gaming functions it has will not be used often.

And how would YOU know what all PSP owners will do?

I can tell you right now, if I had one of those little gadgets, I would carry it with me every day! And maybe I will one day - I've never been a fan of portable gaming, but PSP looks sweet and may yet change my mind.

The point is people don't watch movies on-the-go often therefore they will not carry around movie players often. Having it as an option on PSP isn't going to change that no matter how much you think it would. It's not a cellphone that you carry with you everyday.

Again, this little doodad is so sexy, if and when I ever get one, yeah - I'm carrying it with me just about everywhere. And if it lets me watch movies on the go, I just might start doing that. Because the thing allows me to do - hell, it gives me an excuse to do things I'd just never done before.
 
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