corduroygt
Banned
PSP is NOT sold at a loss.
The importance of UMD to PSP and its future *spinoff
- Thread starter NeoTechni
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PSP is NOT sold at a loss.
As a counter anecdote, I've played quite a lot of Halo 2 and had no problems save for some frame rate drops. The AA is a nice touch.
Clearly you can do things "offline" that you can't do in real time and you can sample things that you can't generate. This has never been a point of contention.
But by that token, if you could generate the same music real time, then it would be CD Quality. If someone sits down and writes some synthesizer music that would sound exactly the same generated real time or released on CD then presumably, by your logic, it would be CD quality music. Except also according to your logic it wouldn't be, because it could be generated real time.
(IRL of course, the real time generated music would sound better, because it's live.)
darkblu already answered this better than I could.
MS needed an emulator that could work consistently with Xbox 1 era games, which were dependent on single threaded performance; "3.2 GHz * 6 cores vs 0.733 MHz * 1 core" wouldn't be terribly meaningful even if the 360 did have 6 cores.
I don't think making the distinction between cores and threads is nitpicking for the sake of arguing. You might want to avoid CPU reviews and benchmarks if you think it is!
Emulating a radically different CPU on a processor less than five times as fast (by clockspeed) seems to me to be an impressive achievement, and it would seem to place PSP emulation well within the realms of possibility. It's hard to see Sony having to overcome a difficulty greater than the loss of OoOE. And it's certainly worth bearing in mind if you're tempted to believe that PSP emulation definitely isn't possible on a Core 2 Duo.
PSP existed specifically to take avantage of the PSP's library of download titles. It complements the PSP and was never designed to replace it, any more than the PSX was designed to replace the PS2.
PSOne didn't show that Sony inteded to stick with the PS1's architecture, and PSTwo was never Sony's chance to do away with PS2 architecture and PS2 game compatibility.
I don't think most of the cost of an UMPC comes down to it being so very powerful. Lets have a look at what we can do for $900 ...
PSP ($200)
Radeon 5850 ($350)
Core i7 920 (8 cores, $300)
-------------------
$850
-------------------
Not quite as powerful as a UMPC, but you do save $50!
Four SGX543 cores put together in multicore is less than 20 mm^2 of silicon in a 45 nm or smaller process, competitive with the silicon budget of the PSP's GPU, and Intel has already shown a 400 MHz clock rate on an available SGX core.
That's 266M tri/sec capability under a conservative shader workload (and, accounting for 2.5 layers of 3D depth complexity in the scene on average, effectively 8G pix/sec fill.) As just one point of comparison, RSX's limit for set-up is 250M tri/sec.
That's 266M tri/sec capability under a conservative shader workload (and, accounting for 2.5 layers of 3D depth complexity in the scene on average, effectively 8G pix/sec fill.) As just one point of comparison, RSX's limit for set-up is 250M tri/sec.
Though the plural of anecdote is not data, I know my case is not the norm given Halo2's usage statistics on Live.
And that's part of CD quality. CD quality does not mean just the resolution it's played at.
I've already admitted that would count, since I said if it doesn't sound like what the CD track would sound like it wouldn't count. But again, for like the tenth time, I'm specifying high quality human voice as the particular example that impressed me with PSP. And we are discussing my opinion.
It is. We're arguing over something insignificant and not relevant, and you knew what I meant. Thus, it's nitpicking for the sake of arguing. Moving on. Pick your arguments. Hell a better thing to do instead of complaining would have been to mention "it's 3 cores, with HT, I know what you meant but moving on"
I'm sure the emulator uses more than one core. At least to convert the different directx versions.
I'm sure they didn't use the method I said either but I was speaking theoretically.
It's unlikely PSP2 will be 5 times as powerful clockspeed wise.
For starters, emulation also uses a lot more power, that's not good in a handheld.
A more efficient use of power would not be emulation at all. PSP2 doesn't have transfinite resources to work with. I don't see them going with emulation.
And the PowerPC processor 360's CPU is based on is built to emulate x86 in some ways. Sony will more than likely going with another off-the-shelf processor. If you can show me one (and cheap, low power) built to emulate PSP's processor, then all of this is comparable.
PSone DID show that Sony inteded to stick with the PS1's architecture, and they kept supporting PS1 for years though. And they were playable on PS2.
PSP Go and PStwo aren't comparable, since Go did do away with most of the games. It was their chance to make a new system. Lots of people were pissed they didnt.
function said:
It does, combined with it being so small. Though my main point was, PSP was not subsidized. Once something is sold for profit/not at a loss, you can't claim it's subsidized. And claiming it was subsidized, isn't relevant, as the subsidy won't be as large as required to get it as powerful.
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That's not a very qualifiable measure. Plenty of CD quality music is created by MIDI in a sequencer driving sample-based synths, very much akin to the Amiga's MOD method. Sequenced 44.1kHz 16bit samples will sound 'CD quality' going by some CDs, but not as good as expensive live-performance orcerhstral soundtracks which are another variation of 'CD quality'.
You talk as if audio compression hasn't been invented.
And yet putting in a physical drive is good in handheld?
A hypothetical $1 profit per PSP hardware would've netted $60 million dollars total profit, not enough for Sony to have invested in the development of such a risky venture in the first place. PSP hardware, however, lost money in the beginning and never could've achieved the volumes necessary to reach a point of profitability without the subsidized price tag, so no, a relatively small profit now is not retroactively self-sustaining nor does it mean the price tag isn't still subsidized.
Lincroft and CE4150 have roughly similar costs in silicon to PSP's SoC (their GPU core is actually smaller than the PSP's), so UMPC or UMPC-like processors are not necessarily more expensive at all.
Lincroft and CE4150 have roughly similar costs in silicon to PSP's SoC (their GPU core is actually smaller than the PSP's), so UMPC or UMPC-like processors are not necessarily more expensive at all.
I've said before that MIDI isn't CD quality even if the assets are that resolution. MIDI can't do things you can do with CD
That sounds like a quality statement to me.
Well since we're arguing about my opinion of CD quality, where it includes anything that can be done on a CD.
How about we go by my opinion of CD quality and stop arguing about it.
Or do I have to make up another term for my opinion so this pointless argument will go away?
How about we call it, Whatever-you-can-do-on-CD quality? Can the argument end now?
What blew me away day 1 with my PSP was that it had Whatever-you-can-do-on-CD quality music with human vocals. Something no other portable had done simply due to lack of space.
No, I made no claims to that. I never said CD quality = the resolution of the recording you guys keep giving. The example I've given many times uses ATRAC compression AND HUMAN VOICES WHICH CANT BE DONE WITH MIDI.
I'd really love it if you guys would stop trying to put words in my mouth, and stop ignoring the ones that do come out of my mouth.
Yes. It was the best thing to happen to handhelds in my opinion. We got portable games that simply wouldn't/couldn't be made without it. It was the biggest leap forward portable gaming ever got.
Lazy8s said:
Except that's not how much PSP made, so your point is moot.
Prove it please? Cause it's not likely given PSPs high launch price.
Nor does anything you say prove it was subsidized. Nor would it be relevant since Sony would be unwilling to subsidize PSP2 to the amount that'd be required in this situation. Even my cheaper UMPC is still worth $300 more than PSP was at launch. And that UMPC was a gift from Intel!
I didn't say the cost of a UMPC was solely due to it's processor.
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Sony sells the ps2 for $100. So if BC costs them $27 a full ps2 wont be much more than that. Do they want to make money on a ps2 or loose money on BC in ps3.
Not only that but they can simply go the GOW way where they enhnace the game and get to sell it all over again.
So once again what way do you think sony wants to go ? The ps3 is selling better than ever dispite not having BC
Amongst the core perhaps , they buy lots of discs. The casuals who own only a few games will feel diffrently. Those who buy systems later in its life time may also feel diffrently. Those who buy lots of used games and trade in will feel diffrently.
A poll of such a small segment of gamers isn't much proof of anything
Look at your calander. Is this 2003 when the psp was being designed. Or is this 2010 when a psp2 is being designed.
Sony will want to get rid of used sales and then inventory costs will be greatly reduced.
Currently I can go to a gamestop and download demos on my ds. It will be very easy for sony to put a kiosk in the ps3 units or in the stand for demo psp 2s that allow users to buy a game card from the store input it to your psp2 and download. Gamestop gets a cut too. Wireless n can trasnfer at a max of 75MB/s. So assuming 8 gigs you can get that from the kiosk in a minute and 49seconds.
I don't see why they can't use flash either. You never gave me a good reason.
5x1.8MB/s = 9MB/s . Thats Less than class 10 shdc. Memory stick XC from sony does 60MB/s . So it will transfer 51MB/s faster than your made up UMD2 disc and sizes will go up to 2TB . Though we'd never see that in game.
Well we agree its a waste of space .
Walk into a gamestop. Count how many new titles they have on umd and then how many they have used.
Yesterday buying a wii fit i counted 15 new and 82 used.
Go into walmart and count how many new psp games there are. I counted 15 at mine.
Now go and find me some of the psp launch games still on shelves new. Can't find them ? I can go on psn and xbox live and find every single game they ever releasedo n those services to this day if I want to and MS and sony and developers get money for that purchase.
The drives still add cost , take up space , fail , and use much more power than flash or DD.
Bluray lasers use more energy than the red lasers in dvd. So a UMD2 drive based on bluray would use more power. And far more power than flash or dd
I disagree.
Sony will and they will do better next time.
I disagree , psp games will not rise as greatly in size as you believe and we already know we have psp games that go from extreme to extreme. I have some that are a few hundred megs and some on two discs. It will be the same with psp2.
I think the PS board guy will be the exception rather than the rule. There is alot of momvement for broad band. I have wireless broad band for $40 a month now and I get cable speeds all over the area.
Cable companys perhaps but that will change. Read up on the news.
Also see my idea for kiosks.
http://www.clearwire.com/
Anyway I'm on sprint with 4 g (through sprint/ clearwire) before that i had 3g. Both unlimited both $40 a month
Un true. Apple offers 250MB a month for $15 or UNLIMITED for $30 .
It would be free for consumers. Not for sony.
With Kindle amazon gives AT&T a portion of each book sold.
Sony can do the same. Plus they can advertise 3g for gaming through the psn store and give at&t or whatever company they partner with a way to sell monthly 3g plans for the system. I'm sure there are plenty of people who would pay $40 or soa month to play psp online through 3g. Or use skype or surf the web.
SO is that a DD problem or a PSP problem ?
Heh I have had windows mobile phones for a number of years and i've been able to download files up to 1gig for a very long time. In fact I downloaded a 8 gig file on my touch pro a month ago so that My friends and I could watch a movie . Downloaded it to my sd card and then loaded it into my friends laptop. Made a much better camping trip.
Were are lawsuits against MS for xbox live games or Sony for psn games. Or apple for iphone apps.
You need to try again. As long as the DRM is not resitrictive and fair there is no problem at all. No one bitches they can't trade apps to friends or can't sell themwhen they are bored of them.
I don't see people bitch that they cn't go to their friends house and watch thier fios at thier friends who only has cable.
WTF world do you live in.
If companies bended to our will the ps3 would have launched at $300 bucks and had no bluray drive and costumers would have been happy. It didn't happen.
If companies bended to our will instead of the napster debacle and the years of waiting till itunes released companys would have wnet DD for music at the end of the 90s.
If companies bended to our will we wouldn't have companys trying to cap our broad band use as you claim.
And is that DD's fault or Sony's fault ?
Its obvious its sonys first attempt at a DD service and they didn't think it through. Would they make the same mistakes wih a psp2 as they did with a psp go.
Its obvious that DD can work and works finefor millions of people through iphones or steam or andriod.
Companys just need to do it right.
We were discussing subsidization.
They can sell PS2 games on PSN.
Over 18,000 votes, that's not a small segment. Sony isn't going to ignore that many people
Especially since they set that site up to get people's opinions on what is most wanted. They aren't going to set that site then ignore the point of it cause you don't like it.
And flash is still many times more expensive than optical, and always will be
Yes. I've suggested so, but not on this site. There are more issues to work out.
Actually I did, other people did, many times. Ignoring the reasons, or not even liking them doesn't mean I gave you no good reasons.
As I've said before. I was never denying those advantages of flash.
Problem, flash costs many times more than UMD.
False. I said I agree its a waste of space to only use UMD for BC. I said Sony wouldn't use it for just BC.
I see lots of new titles every EB/GS I go to
Lets assume the singular form of anecdote = data.
You've proven there are still new games to sell
Yes. Annoyingly, MGA is still full price, when MGA2 has been discounted...
And flash costs many times more than UMD
And the games would cost far less to publish
You disagree Sony wants to keep selling products to paying customers? Good thing you're not in charge
]
Sony CANT do better next time. As I've pointed out before, the issues that caused Go to fail were directly due to the lack of UMD Drive. It wasnt cause Sony chose not to post certain games, it's cause they didn't have the legal right to.
They will, and must.
1) The GPU WILL use higher quality assets, which take more space.
2) There will be more RAM, devs will use that for larger levels, more characters loaded, etc.
He's not an exception. 75% of the world doesnt have broadband.
And he's an example of someone with broadband but a small quota.
You're not the rule though. I gave you the prices for all of Canada.
And I gave you the flaws in your idea based off that, so... You've corrected nothing.
Costs to Sony are still costs.
And you're again comparing what filesize to PSP games?
Yeah and add $30 to the cost of the game
DD. Not PSP. PSP2 wont solve those issues.
If anything they'll be worse due to the larger filesizes, and how laws are changing to let ISPs punish large file downloaders.
You need to try again. I brought up specific examples of INVASIVE DRM that resulted in backlash. You gave me examples where they weren't. Try apple to apple comparisons.
This one, what world do you live in where people pay for stuff they dont want?
If it didn't happen it's cause the consumers paid for the PS3 at it's cost. Thus, Sony would be bending to the consumers will and supplying the demand.
But it did happen, PS3 sales were low, so Sony was forced to bend to consumer will and lower costs by removing components. You gave an example that supports me!
Except they have no reason to when people keep paying for the service.
Again, DD. Not Sonys.
Laws in place prevented Go from being useful.
Laws prevented them from posting every game, laws prevented them from exchanging UMDs for games.
Yes, cause they were the fault of DD not Sony. As was said before, Sony CANT fix them with PSP2
And again, you keep bringing up examples that aren't comparable due to the massive difference in file sizes.
Just because carts worked for Gameboy Color with only 1 megabyte, doesn't mean 1 meg would work for PSP. Your examples, dont work. They are not comparable.
They can sell psp games on psn also and not have to compete with the libary of used games sitting on shelves at gamestops and other stores.
So you believe that poll is indictive of the whole collective of ps3 users that will ever exist ? I highly doubt it. In fact people that go online and look for playstation info is the miniority . Not the majority.
8 gigs of MLC flash is under $4 bucks ,16 gigs is just over $4. Prices will continue to drop as micron prices go down. 8-16 gigs should be plenty for psp2.
64gigs is $15 bucks. Which means sony can put 128 gigs into a next gen psp for under $30 bucks when it launches in 2011 or later. Figuring 8 gigs per game as an average and yu can fit 16 games on it before investing in any additional memory sticks.
http://www.dramexchange.com/
Whats there to work out ? In the ps3 kiosk there are two ps3s. One is a dummy unit in the plexiglass and teh real one is in the metal frame below. Sony can simply put small pc servers in there. hardrives are cheap. Factoring 8 gigs a game with a 1TB drive sony can fit 128 gigs. By the end of this year they can triple that with 3TB drives at 384 games. All gamestops have been upgraded to broad band. So sony can preload games weeks before release.
You claim 2 things.
Price . Which i can understand but nintendo uses flash and sells games for less than psp games and still makes money
Storage . Which isn't a concern anymore. I have showed 8gigs of MLC sitting at $4. Your getting over 4 times the space vs umd and it matchs what you claim for a next gen UMD system.
Lets also not forget that flash will continue to drop in price and most likely will drop again before the psp 2 is out considering they are now moving to 32nm nand and after that 22. Through out this decade flash will continue to drop in price and increase in speed.
UMD2 however will not. Once the specs are locked in thats it.
Flash however has many important aspects for a portable system as its advantages.
Speed , Durability , power usage.
Do you have the costs for UMD. Sony has to maintain a line just for UMD , Its a form factor that no one uses and there are caddys that no one uses but sony for UMD.
Then you have the costs built ito the system. You have that drive sitting in there and more expensive batterys , a spining motor , and a larger device because of it.
I know what you said. But its also a waste of space in retail and in the system it self.
Tuesday when I go to my local gamestop i will take you a picture . Both the new and used games are in the same section bookended. Yo ucan see the sheer diffrence between the titles.
But shelf life is extremely short because retialers only keep a small amount of new games on the shelves
Can't buy MGA anywhere at retail (Assuming you mean metal gear acid ?) and many places don't even carry it online
http://www.walmart.com/search/search-ng.do?search_constraint=0&ic=48_0&search_query=metal+gear+acid
http://www.target.com/gsearch/186-2...&searchNodeID=1038576|1287991011&searchPage=1
http://www.bestbuy.com/site/olstemp...##7##k&list=y&usc=All+Categories&nrp=15&iht=n
http://www.gamestop.com/browse/sear...&Ntx=mode+matchallpartial&Ntt=metal gear acid
In fact even the newer one is not avalible anywhere.
Do you have pricing data you can refer me to >
Actually with a DD only system i would cost far less than UMD2 . Also there would be no need manage in store inventory or compete with used product which will increase profit.
As for flash intial cost may be higher , but it doesn't stop ds games from making very healthy profits and cost less.
http://www.gamestop.com/Catalog/ProductDetails.aspx?Product_ID=76135
$40 for a upcoming psp game and
http://www.gamestop.com/Catalog/ProductDetails.aspx?product_id=76944
http://www.gamestop.com/Catalog/ProductDetails.aspx?product_id=75028
$30 for upcoming ds games.
In fact some ds games launch brand new at $15 bucks !
http://www.gamestop.com/Catalog/ProductDetails.aspx?product_id=76992
and you believe for some reason that people who want a cutting edge next gen portable will not buy a psp2 because umd isn't there ?
I disagree.
Bullshit.
The problems with psp go was this
1)Full psp library not up at launch
2) games on psn were more expensive than the used verisons on shelves.
3) PSP go battery was much smaller. than the psps of the past
4) PSPs were easily hacked and many opted to keep those than rebuy
5) PSP screen was larger than PSP go
6) They didn't bother to update the wireless standard
Now with a new gen DD from the start system. 1) Is moot , 2 ) is moot 3) is moot 4) is moot , 5 is moot and 6 is moot
Yet the 360 uses 6.8 gig discs and renders at 720p which is a reslution that the psp2 will not have to bother with.
Got a link ?
http://www.websiteoptimization.com/bw/1001/
usa is ranked 22nd in broad band penetration. All places are growing by leaps and bounds.
http://www.ca.inter.net/en/max/promotion.php $30 CA for 75gigs of data at 5mbps is not bad at all.
http://www.bell.ca/shopping/interne.../getDetailPage&_pageLabel=PrsShpInt_NewAccess
$60 bucks for 115 gigs of data a month for 25/7 is pretty close to what i pay but I have unlimited and 20/5.
Prices don't seem bad. Now you can make an argument if the person is crazy hardcore and buys dozens of titles a month there might be a problem
and they will be less than UMD support in retail and through the whole process of getting the title to the end user. Also you have to factor in lost sales due to used copies floating around.
Kindle has books up to 100MBs and they charge $10 for it. Sony charges $40 for psp games. If you factor in Gamestops cut of about $5 per title that will easily make up for the bandwidth used.
Text messages cost cell phone companys fractions of a cent and bandwidth isn't much more expensive at pennies a gig.
In made up world.
Remember currently you have to pay gamestop /walmart / whatever per copy. You need to pay for the physical medium , you need to pay for manuals and packaging , you need to pay for shipping costs. All that adds up. Easier to give a wirless company a piece of the action
So your saying that the psp2 can't come with anything but wireless b ?
Also
http://www.dailytech.com/FCC+Airs+P...omes+With+100+Mbps+Broadband/article17898.htm
http://www.dailytech.com/Comcast+Seeks+to+Have+FCC+Ruling+Reversed/article16646.htm
Things are changing. The overment is starting to view high speed internet as a right just like phone service and tv service.
Steam does not have invasive DRM and has been in use for a very long time.
Want to know INVASIVE DRM . I can buy a ps3 title and it wont work in my 360... Thats pretty invasive.
Ican buy a ps2 title and it wont work in my PS3 .
I don't see law suits floating around for any of these things.
Steam , DD , windows live all hae fair DRM and there is no reason why more DD services can't be based on that. Even Zune marketplace has fair DRM and I can watch those videos across my 360 , zune and windows pc.
I don't want discs. I still pay for them. Many people have to pay for discs although they don't want them.
Life isn't fair. IF you want a psp 2 orjoe blow portable system you buy it regardless of what format it uses.
Look at Itunes. It became extremely sucessfull even though it had invasive drm and locked you into itunes unless you wanted to burn all your music to cds again and then rip them back to another format.
I don't see huge back lashes against apple or law suits.
So if PSP2 comes out with DD then its Sony bending to consumers will correct ?
And it took them years to do and sonys sales suffered and its still loaded with uneed items.
and sony still won in the end because they forced bluray on the market
Exactly. You want Sony titles you have to buy a sony system. If sony wants to ditch umds what are you going to do ? Are you going to not buy a psp2 or are you going to suck it up and buy it ?
.
Its sony's faul. Explain how its DD's fault.
DD can be anything. Some DD doesn't even have drm and certianly is not DD's fault that sony redisigned the psp 5 years later nd managed to screw up for a second time.
Post links to these laws.
There is no Law that said psp go can't be usefull.
There are no laws preventing them from posting every game on PSN.
There are no laws to prevent them from exchanging UMD's for DDs.
There are no Laws that said sony had to stick with only wireless B and put a smaller battery in and a smaller screen in.
There are no such laws.
How are any of these things DD's fault. They are all sonys because sony is bad at making software and its very obvious this generation.
They are all valid.
WTF is this. Gameboy color came out a decade before the psp came out. Times change.
Personaly I don't want a gimped system because sony uses UMD or bluray UMD in the system.
corduroygt
Banned
Epic Fail
Gb = Gigabits, not Gigabytes, so that's actually 8GB flash chip for $15 and 1GB for $4 that you're seeing there, not to mention cost of controllers, etc that will need to be added.
Closest thing to umd there is microSD and thats $4 for 2GB while UMD costs pennies.
Stop this SSD crusade, pressed plastic discs are always going to be cheaper than semiconductors.
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That's also abandoning a lot of customers.
No, I said it's too large of a sample to ignore.
And given the point of the website is to get data from its users, Sony won't ignore the data it got from its users
And that $4 price is still twice the cost of a 50 GB bluray disc!
-Storage would add up pretty fast, the kiosks would need to be altered to store multiple ventilated harddrives
-USB ports or the bluray slot would need to be exposed (installation of games, faster powered transfer to PSPs)
-They'd need to set the PS3 up to act as a RemotePlay or PSN Store server for multiple simultaneous PSPs (otherwise the store is limited to 1 cust per kiosk)
-Kiosks would need to be given an internet connection, and most retailers only have dial up shared with the interact machine and main line (to put your games on your account and use PSN cards)
Not in canada. You keep thinking small. This has to work for the whole world not just you.
Nintendo uses vastly smaller amounts of flash.
Again, you're comparing apples to oranges.
The largest DS games is 256 megabytes, and there is only one that big. The rest are all 128 MB or smaller. 128 MB isnt enough for 99% of PSP games.
And it's twice as expensive. which = higher risks for publishers
Lets not forget optical/UMD will/has as well.
Um, costs still go down. You don't think optical mediums get cheaper?
Did you not pay attention to the dropping cost of writable discs over the years?
optical discs have come down in price like every other product ever mass produced
http://www.dvdcopycat.com/blog/page/3/
And as I've told you a minimum of 3 times, no one is disputing that.
Cost however is more important, and is why solid state mediums were abandoned in the first place
Yes, at launch UMD cost under $2 for dual layered, and less for one layered.
DS cards, for 64 MB cost $20 to manufacture. Making DS cards cost 288 times more capacity wise
And like every other mass produced product ever made, the price has come down.
Except you have to maintain a line for every game being made no matter what it's stored on
Yes, and as someone pointed out before. The cost of that is still cheaper than using flash, and the costs don't get put on publishers which = bigger better and more games.
You're exaggerating again, the difference in battery cost is negligible. And so is the size.
Wait, you're saying Playstations website with over 18,000 votes isnt a large enough sampling size to represent all owners but you're going to give me a picture of 1 game store? That's hypocrisy.
The difference is irrelevant. New games are there. And other systems also have plenty of used games.
No one is disputing that. The claim is it would also sell far less since you're excluding markets DD can't get to.
apples - oranges. Stop comparing 2 completely different things
that's less than I paid for Pokemon Gold.
So do some PSP games! I paid $12 for my new copy of Gurumin. $10 for locoroco
Some people CANT buy a DD only system even if they wanted to.
75% of the world doesnt have broadband
Then there are those with small quotas
75% of gamers prefer discs to downloads
1 was due to the law, and going DD only does not solve that problem
2 was due to the law, and going DD only does not solve that problem
3 wont be solved by going DD only. 3 was a direct result of going DD only
5 was a direct result of going DD only
Those problems were caused by going DD. They won't be moot, they'll be made worse.
Unlikely.
http://www.internetworldstats.com/dsl.htm
Oh, apparently only 4.6 % of the world has broadband, not 25% as I claimed
http://www.websiteoptimization.com/bw/1001/
Here's more country stats, note how none are anywhere near 100% coverage.
1) USA is not the world.
2) 22nd place is not good. Even using the USA as an example, going DD excludes a large amount of people
100 MB is the size of PSP minis!!
No, it wouldn't.
140 characters is not comparable to PSP games!
No, this one. I didn't make up a world where 3G was cheaper than flash.
No. I said nothing of the sort. But PSPs wifi is only one of the reasons downloading takes so long. Switching to faster wifi isnt going to make the problem go away.
1) Now how long do you predict that will take. Do you expect Sony to wait that long? I guarantee the # of years is greater than 1
2) Do you expect Sony to bet billions on the govt. that has failed to follow through on similar projects in the past?
3) USA is not the world
I didnt say it was
That's not DRM
75% of gamers do
There were.
No, since the majority of consumers don't want DD.
You can't force anything on the market.
http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/lumines-psp-unlikely-to-appear-on-psn
To post the game without re-getting those rights, would be breaking copyright law. It'd be theft.
This is why most games aren't up. This is why most PS1 games aren't up. Other devs have posted similar quotes.
Just cause you're ignorant of how the law works doesn't mean there aren't laws about it. Do research before making claims
They'd have to reobtain rights for licenses (sports, movies) songs, etc. Contracts have expired, etc. That is a direct result of going DD only. Not Sony's fault, other than making the moronic decision to go DD only in the first place.
Sony can't give you something they don't own.
When Sony ditched UMD in the Go, they had an excuse to go smaller, so they took it.
And? Comparing it to GBC is no different than the comparisons you've made. You keep comparing it to completely different situations, huge differences in filesizes.
Well you didn't vote hard enough with your wallet to outweigh those who do want it.
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HA! Well done!
That's cool. Once we know what exactly ewveryone's talking about, we can discuss it instead of tripping up on definitions.
That wasn't what I was saying. I'm happy with your definition, particularly the possibility to include actual songs which need large storage not afford by DS carts. However, now we've got that clear, how does that relate to the thread topic? I was saying that we can get significant amounts of prerecorded music onto a couple of hundred MBs with audio compression, which is a negligable amount on current and future flash-based sotrage options. Thus the need for a disc to enable high-quality assets as it was needed for PSP doesn't exist for PSP2, unless you want HD video.
On PSP 1. However you're arguing about conserving power in PSP2. You don't want emulation in PSP2 because you consider it power-hungry. By that same token a phsyical drive should be avoided if it can be. Batteries will likely last longer emulating PSP off flash-storage than driving an optical drive running on native hardware. Plus for PSP2 games where you don't care about emulation requirements, the lack of a physical drive will extend battery life.
Incidentally is there anyone reading this who can do a battery test of flash media versus UMD on PSP? I tried to look up the differences but Google came up with nothing. It'd only need a UMD video to be watched and then the same film viewed off MemoryStick. I'm sure people here have that sort of experience and can tell us how much difference there is in battery life running the UMD or not.
*faceplam* Considering I gave pretty much that same sentence "What blew me away day 1 with my PSP was that it had Whatever-you-can-do-on-CD quality music with human vocals. Something no other portable had done simply due to lack of space.' just with CD quality in there, everyone should have known what I was talking about from the start. It's not like I didn't say human vocals enough. It's pretty infuriating that me changing the term is what got you to understand when I've explained it many times.
That's not negligible on flash. To a publisher, they'd see it as wasted money. In most cases they'd rather the music be switched to MIDI or use more compression. Switching to flash puts the burden of every file adding to the cost back on developers which is a step backwards. See that guys explanation involving the all you can eat buffet.
The need would be even greater on PSP2, the better GPU alone would demand better textures and 3D models. It will undoubtedly use a higher resolution screen, that would use higher resolution FMV. Sony has no need to improve the music quality as PSP1 is pretty much the highest we're going to need for a while. Devs aren't going to take advantage of the more space demanding improvements if they have to worry about the publishing cost going up every megabyte.
No, emulation would use a lot more than UMD. I think it was you who proved Sony reduced power usage far more just by going from the 1x to the 2x model than they did by removing UMD, Sony can and has reduced UMD's power usage. A Bluray-based UMD would use even less power as it'd use a slower motor speed.
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I'm going to attempt to shorten this
Of course the usershave never experianced a real DD system. So its not a valid poll. If you show them to units and list battery life of both units , one with the mechanical drive and one without I'm sure results will be diffrent.
Storage is cheap. I did the numbers you failed to listen. Asuming 8 gigs per psp2 and using 1TB hardrives (they are as low as $80 bucks right now) you can store 128 psp 2 titles at 8 gigs a game. 3TB hardrives which will be out later this year would tripple that would hold 384 titles.
These are far more than any store would actual hold. In fact thats more new games than 360 , ps3 and wii have in stock at a gamestop.
As for the rest they can set it up as a wireless n server which will transfer at 60MB/s which would be enough to transfer a title in a little over 1m 40 seconds.
They wouldn't need a ps3 at all. Gamestops have all goe broad band and most walmarts that i know have broad band. Aside from that they would preload games to the kiosks and can do it over days or weeks so fast speeds wouldn't be a problem. Even the slowest dsl connection (or 3g or even 56k) would be fast enough to check that the code is valid.
I disagree , i posted canada's prices for internet. The average user would have no problems with limits that are 75GB or greater. I don't invision casuals who buy a game a month or a game every few months to have problems with bandwidth caps. If the caps are restrictive they can go to their local store just like now.
With a UMD2 you still need to pay for the disc and the caddy and the drives will still cost money.
Flash however has constantly gotten faster and cheaper while increasing in storage capacity.
Memory stick Pro came out in 2003. It was limited to 20MB/s maximum speed. It came out with 1GB size.
Memory stick xc anounced in 2009 it will go to 2TB and transfer at 60MB/s
ALot has changed since the psp came out.
Yes there is a higher risk involved but sony is already charging more per game and if they go with flash it can be absorbed into the cost.
But they weren't fully abandoned they are still in use and are gaining again in popularity.
And what are prices like today ?
Better is debatable. As for exaggerting the psp go gets close to the psp 3000s battery life 3-5 vs 4-6 hours of life. The psp 3000 has a 1200mah rating while the go has 930mah rating. The psp 3000 has a 270mah rating increase.
I asked you to check your local stores also. They do not carry old stock. I gave you a link to the major retailers in this country for new games and none of them have Metal gear acid for sale or part 2 for sale new.
Its very simple. Shelf life for games is very short at retail while in a DD store the life of sales will be greater.
tha
Same price as pokemon gold , pokemon gold also come with a piece of hardware included which is why I did not use it for comparisons.
If people can go to a store and buy a game they have acess to DD systems.
Please link me to these laws. They do not exist.
Your blaming DD for sony's mistakes and then more importantly your claiming there is some law out there. Please link me to these laws.
[
Also we already talked about the kiosk design. It doesn't have to be either or. It can be both which you seem to forget.
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3g on verizon is a $10 charge for 25megs and 20c a MB after. However unlimited 3g is only $30 . you notice how it does not compute.
Its because 3g is dirt cheap for verizon and they are able to charge alot for it and make lts of money. Using thier own pricing you shouldn't be able to get more than 75MB for $30 bucks of data. But its unlimited at $30 bucks instead of 75MB
It would cost Verizon very little and make them lots to support a psp2 on thier network esp since they will have moved to 4G/wimaxx before the psp2 is out (verizon is rolling it out at the end of this year
As long as the publisher has the sports liscense still they can publish it without reobtaining anything. Movies of course have to be relisenced but sony has already done that through psn. Sonys only have to be reliscensed if it has another copyright holder. The vast majority of games do not use copyrighted music from outside the company.
None of this is DDs fault. This is sonys fault. If the system was designed as DD from the start none of this would be a problem.
Btw releasing the games on UMD2 would require sony get rights to the music again. You can see from virtual console that these are not problems with the vast majority of gamse released and its not a problem with DD
I'm comparing it to a system that came out the same year as the psp. Sony could have easily released a flash based system back then or used smaller capacity discs. Developers would have designed around it. There is no problem there.
I moded my psp 2000 years ago and didn't have to deal with sony's stupid software . Hopefully they make a good DD only system with the psp2 otherwise I will likely only buy the new nintendo system or if MS comes out with a system.
Personaly I might be very happy with a new windows mobile 7 phone for gaming on the go.
Of course the usershave never experianced a real DD system. So its not a valid poll. If you show them to units and list battery life of both units , one with the mechanical drive and one without I'm sure results will be diffrent.
I miss read the page so its more than $4 however a Bluray disc would hardly make for a portable system.
Storage is cheap. I did the numbers you failed to listen. Asuming 8 gigs per psp2 and using 1TB hardrives (they are as low as $80 bucks right now) you can store 128 psp 2 titles at 8 gigs a game. 3TB hardrives which will be out later this year would tripple that would hold 384 titles.
These are far more than any store would actual hold. In fact thats more new games than 360 , ps3 and wii have in stock at a gamestop.
As for the rest they can set it up as a wireless n server which will transfer at 60MB/s which would be enough to transfer a title in a little over 1m 40 seconds.
They wouldn't need a ps3 at all. Gamestops have all goe broad band and most walmarts that i know have broad band. Aside from that they would preload games to the kiosks and can do it over days or weeks so fast speeds wouldn't be a problem. Even the slowest dsl connection (or 3g or even 56k) would be fast enough to check that the code is valid.
.
I disagree , i posted canada's prices for internet. The average user would have no problems with limits that are 75GB or greater. I don't invision casuals who buy a game a month or a game every few months to have problems with bandwidth caps. If the caps are restrictive they can go to their local store just like now.
Yes the ds was designed at a diffrent time. This is not 2004. PSP 2 games can grow with flash as it grows in size and drops in price. If 4 gigs is $4 at launch they can start making them and slowly move up as flash drops in price. Just like when the psp 1 came out 1 gig flash cards were 40 or so bucks in the states and now you can get 8 gig cards for $15 bucks.
Optical costs will hit a wall and not drop more. The drives will hit a price and not be reduced more. ALso opitcal drives do not get faster and do not increase in storage size.
With a UMD2 you still need to pay for the disc and the caddy and the drives will still cost money.
Flash however has constantly gotten faster and cheaper while increasing in storage capacity.
Memory stick Pro came out in 2003. It was limited to 20MB/s maximum speed. It came out with 1GB size.
Memory stick xc anounced in 2009 it will go to 2TB and transfer at 60MB/s
ALot has changed since the psp came out.
Yes there is a higher risk involved but sony is already charging more per game and if they go with flash it can be absorbed into the cost.
But they weren't fully abandoned they are still in use and are gaining again in popularity.
Link ?
And what are prices like today ?
Not with DD. Its just data stored on a drive in a server farm or kisok
Better is debatable. As for exaggerting the psp go gets close to the psp 3000s battery life 3-5 vs 4-6 hours of life. The psp 3000 has a 1200mah rating while the go has 930mah rating. The psp 3000 has a 270mah rating increase.
I asked you to check your local stores also. They do not carry old stock. I gave you a link to the major retailers in this country for new games and none of them have Metal gear acid for sale or part 2 for sale new.
Its very simple. Shelf life for games is very short at retail while in a DD store the life of sales will be greater.
Only new games tho. Games have a limited shelf life of making money. With a DD only system games can continue to sell new for years and not have to compete with used games.
There is no such market. If there are physical stores then you can get DD
They are both portable video game systems.
tha
Same price as pokemon gold , pokemon gold also come with a piece of hardware included which is why I did not use it for comparisons.
The point is that dispite this very expensive flash as you claim they are able to releas cheap games brand new on the ds.
Don't use fake statistics.
If people can go to a store and buy a game they have acess to DD systems.
Please link me to these laws. They do not exist.
Not at all. All of them are due to the physical medium existing before the DD console came out. If you go DD from the start all games will be released as they come out and stay on DD.
Your blaming DD for sony's mistakes and then more importantly your claiming there is some law out there. Please link me to these laws.
[
As your link points out oer 6.5 Billion people have broadband. Only 60 or 70m people own a psp.
Also we already talked about the kiosk design. It doesn't have to be either or. It can be both which you seem to forget.
$40 is the cost of a psp game. Some games are as small as 400 megs. 4 kindle books is $40 bucks and can be 400megs. 3g is free for kindle. It can be free for psp.
No ? Says who. I'm charged 40 a month for unlimited acess . $5 is 1/8th the cost for much less than the data i use on it. I play bf2 bad company on it and download legal torrents. I normaly go over 100 gigs. Even back when I was on 3g I was over 20 ggis a month.
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Yes but your not following. Text messages like wireless internet is where wireless companys make alot of money. For example. Text messages costs fractions of pennies and yet unlimited texts used to be (up untill a few months ago) $20 bucks extra a month on verizon. You'd have to send thousands of text messages a month to get even close to costing verizon that much money and most people would use less than $1 a month for texts.
3g on verizon is a $10 charge for 25megs and 20c a MB after. However unlimited 3g is only $30 . you notice how it does not compute.
Its because 3g is dirt cheap for verizon and they are able to charge alot for it and make lts of money. Using thier own pricing you shouldn't be able to get more than 75MB for $30 bucks of data. But its unlimited at $30 bucks instead of 75MB
It would cost Verizon very little and make them lots to support a psp2 on thier network esp since they will have moved to 4G/wimaxx before the psp2 is out (verizon is rolling it out at the end of this year
Wireless B transfers at 11Mbps. Its a big problem. You couldn't even make the kiosk idea work if you wanted too
I expect sny to be more mindful of the future than they were with the psp and design a proper system that is able to download games from a kiosk at a store and for those who have fast internet at home will allow them to download it through that or 3g/4g networks. That is whats popular its where markets are heading and portable systems will head that way. Even if at the start games wont grow much in size over the psp as time goes on the size of games can easily increase.
Yet you claim all the problems are DD , steam is an example of a proper DD system that is not invasive and proves that DD doesn't have to be.
Digital rights medium. Last I check bluray / dvd / cd is digital and it stops me form using the discs in a way sony doesn't want.
You mean 75% of gamers who visted that site and took the time to post there ?
Got links to the law suits ? Last i checked ipods were far and away the best sellig mp3 player and iphone is one of the best selling phones ever made.
But if people buy it that means sony did what consumers wanted right. Its what you have been saying.
Sony did a good job of forcing bluray
That isn't a law , that is bad liscensing agreements. Some tv shows due to music haven't come out on dvd either . They can simply replace the music if they so choose.
Really thats why games with music created in house aren't up ? Thats bullshit
The vast majority of psp games do not have liscensed music
As long as the publisher has the sports liscense still they can publish it without reobtaining anything. Movies of course have to be relisenced but sony has already done that through psn. Sonys only have to be reliscensed if it has another copyright holder. The vast majority of games do not use copyrighted music from outside the company.
None of this is DDs fault. This is sonys fault. If the system was designed as DD from the start none of this would be a problem.
Btw releasing the games on UMD2 would require sony get rights to the music again. You can see from virtual console that these are not problems with the vast majority of gamse released and its not a problem with DD
Nope they can't , but sony and the game developers could have introduced an exchange program. This s not DD's fault. It is sonys fault.
Which many people love. I don't see why this is DD's fault. THe main problem ws that they didn't go DD in the first place !
I'm comparing it to a system that came out the same year as the psp. Sony could have easily released a flash based system back then or used smaller capacity discs. Developers would have designed around it. There is no problem there.
I moded my psp 2000 years ago and didn't have to deal with sony's stupid software . Hopefully they make a good DD only system with the psp2 otherwise I will likely only buy the new nintendo system or if MS comes out with a system.
Personaly I might be very happy with a new windows mobile 7 phone for gaming on the go.
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