The Game Technology discussion thread *Read first post before posting*

[assurdum]

Since the effect runs on the GPU, what makes you think this?

Well, 360 has known to have some problem in the range of contrast/colours (a notorious bug) compared to RSX, could even to depend to this. Maybe the FXAA more subtle not work properly on 360. I don't found necessary better a deeper use, because cause some notable lost in the fine details. By the way, I found a bit strange the cost on RSX would been so dramatical to avoid it. I just suppose, of course.

 

[Kasersky]

Well, 360 has known to have some problem in the range of contrast/colours (a notorious bug) compared to RSX, could even to depend to this. Maybe the FXAA more subtle not work properly on 360. I don't found necessary better a deeper use, because cause some notable lost in the fine details. By the way, I found a bit strange the cost on RSX would been so dramatical to avoid it. I just suppose, of course.

generally color range has been better on 360 not sure where you get that. even in some of the pictures you can see color banding on the ps3 version. the adjustable stuff isnt even worth mentioning.

btw i think some of the shots are pre-render cinematics you can see the macroblocking.

 

[Gitaroo]

PO don't suit well in a big screen... the thing more irritating is the proclaim bullshit of kojima about the HD remake; I remember something like 'not a porting but a rewrite edition suited for the HD console but where? Isn't it just the same identical graphic just ported HD or I'm wrong? Even the texture appears exactly the same...

they added motion blur and some other post fx for Peace Walker, there was a old shot that show the difference between the original and HD port. All the HUD were suppose to be re written too.

 

[assurdum]

generally color range has been better on 360 not sure where you get that. even in some of the pictures you can see color banding on the ps3 version. the adjustable stuff isnt even worth mentioning.

btw i think some of the shots are pre-render cinematics you can see the macroblocking.

Did you know 360 has a bug in the range? It's pretty notorious. By the way, I look an another video from the site http://www.lensoftruth.com/first-look-deus-ex-human-revolution-ps3/;it gives me the impression FXAA on ps3 be more 'dynamic' than limited, if we can to say like this.To the opposite on 360 is ever activated & work really well, see gametrailers review.

 

[Kasersky]

GT is probably a preview build, lens gets early retail copies illegally through their sponsor prolly. and dynamic fxaa would end up being far more work than necessary and isn't even realistic.

 

[assurdum]

GT is probably a preview build, lens gets early retail copies illegally through their sponsor prolly. and dynamic fxaa would end up being far more work than necessary and isn't even realistic.

What do you means? It's just to set off some parameter when cost too much...

 

[Kasersky]

What do you means? It's just to set off some parameter when cost too much...

then you need a prediction overhead, or real time analytics. the overhead would out do the performance gains, fxaa isnt that high cost it wouldnt be worth it

 

[djskribbles]

generally color range has been better on 360 not sure where you get that. even in some of the pictures you can see color banding on the ps3 version. the adjustable stuff isnt even worth mentioning.

btw i think some of the shots are pre-render cinematics you can see the macroblocking.

I dunno if it's because of capturing equipment, but I find a lot of 360 captures have crushed blacks. I've heard from several 360 owners that many 360 games have a messed up gamma.

PS3 OTOH, LoT always has poor PS3 captures. Playing on my calibrated TV, games never look as washed out as they do on LoT captures. If their luma ranges don't match, it can introduce banding and a washed out picture.

With that said, it's probably best to avoid LoT when comparing color, contrast, gamma, banding etc.

 

[kagemaru]

Did you know 360 has a bug in the range? It's pretty notorious. By the way, I look an another video from the site http://www.lensoftruth.com/first-look-deus-ex-human-revolution-ps3/;it gives me the impression FXAA on ps3 be more 'dynamic' than limited, if we can to say like this.To the opposite on 360 is ever activated & work really well, see gametrailers review.

It's not a bug IIRC it was a different gamma curve that MS implemented purposely because they thought it would look better to the players.

Also, I think you're trying a bit too hard on this whole FXAA thing. It's not a big deal if one is slightly better than the other in some minor way, judging by what I just saw, both versions turned out great.

 

[assurdum]

]It's not a bug IIRC it was a different gamma curve that MS implemented purposely because they thought it would look better to the players. [/B]

Also, I think you're trying a bit too hard on this whole FXAA thing. It's not a big deal if one is slightly better than the other in some minor way, judging by what I just saw, both versions turned out great.

Seriously was intentional ? Wow, definitely a weird choise... I always read a bug was a more plausible reason. By the way, what I have said was just a conjencture; definitely on 360 is better implemented without doubt. On the ps3 sometimes seems almost to see no AA.

 

[MJP]

It's not a bug IIRC it was a different gamma curve that MS implemented purposely because they thought it would look better to the players.

Gamma correction on the 360 is performed with a piecewise-linear approximation of the actual sRGB curve...basically it's like if you tried to make curved line by connecting 5 straight lines together at different angles. The end result is wayyy less accurate (in terms of the sRGB spec) compared to what you get from other GPU's. I have no idea whether or not MS purposely messed with the curve on top of that to get more crushed blacks and saturated colors, but the fact that it's a piecewise approximation is what causes developers a lot of grief when tuning their content for different platforms.

 

[kagemaru]

Seriously was intentional ? Wow, definitely a weird choise... I always read a bug was a more plausible reason. By the way, what I have said was just a conjencture; definitely on 360 is better implemented without doubt. On the ps3 sometimes seems almost to see no AA.

Yeah but the AA has a cost with a slight blur to the textures on the 360 version, so it evens out IMO

Gamma correction on the 360 is performed with a piecewise-linear approximation of the actual sRGB curve...basically it's like if you tried to make curved line by connecting 5 straight lines together at different angles. The end result is wayyy less accurate (in terms of the sRGB spec) compared to what you get from other GPU's. I have no idea whether or not MS purposely messed with the curve on top of that to get more crushed blacks and saturated colors, but the fact that it's a piecewise approximation is what causes developers a lot of grief when tuning their content for different platforms.

I agree, sorry didn't mean to make it seem like a great thing. I understand it's a pain for developers. As to where I read where it was intentional, it was here:

Quite why this happens is something we were uncertain about before a kindly developer clued us in. From what we've learned this week, it appears that this ramping up of the gamma is actually deliberate on Microsoft's part. The actual reason it is in place on the Xbox 360 is because Microsoft believe that it looks better on the average TV. Bearing in mind the breadth of displays available and how they are typically so badly calibrated when you buy them (brightness and contrast are often ramped up in order to make them stand out on the shop floor), we can't help but think that this is a call that the developer should make.


Developers are made aware of the gamma conversion, and Microsoft provide an exact table of the transformation so it can be reversed should developers wish to factor it out while they build the framebuffer - but with the black crush we see on occasion, we can only wonder if this is a 100 per cent non-destructive process. However, the fact that this option is there means that the issue probably can't be changed with a firmware update, as the chances are that "corrected" games will then look very strange indeed. Properly calibrated games like Burnout Paradise for example will no longer be displayed correctly.

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-vs-hdmi?page=3

 

[Kasersky]

Yeah but the AA has a cost with a slight blur to the textures on the 360 version, so it evens out IMO



I agree, sorry didn't mean to make it seem like a great thing. I understand it's a pain for developers. As to where I read where it was intentional, it was here:

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-vs-hdmi?page=3

thanks for the link i completely forgot about that article

i dont know the texture detail seems to be preserved even on the 360 version, its crazy how well fxaa can isolate real edges.

 

[Gitaroo]

I took that screen shots and adjust the level in PS a little.

it looks a little bit blur on 360, I still think it may have something to do with this

http://forum.beyond3d.com/showpost.php?p=1566942&postcount=2243

 

[Kasersky]

which part specifically do you notice a loss of detail other than the third sticky which looks like a mipmap bug. the sticky with the helix shows good detail even the receipt shares the fidelity.

ya thats a adjustable preset value which alters how fxaa accounts for subpixel detail, its probably close .25, default reminds me of crysis 2 which looked awful imo.

 

[sebbbi]

Gamma correction on the 360 is performed with a piecewise-linear approximation of the actual sRGB curve...basically it's like if you tried to make curved line by connecting 5 straight lines together at different angles. The end result is wayyy less accurate (in terms of the sRGB spec) compared to what you get from other GPU's. I have no idea whether or not MS purposely messed with the curve on top of that to get more crushed blacks and saturated colors, but the fact that it's a piecewise approximation is what causes developers a lot of grief when tuning their content for different platforms.

Assuming you of course use the hardware gamma. For example storing textures in 2.0 gamma space requires only a single mul instruction to degamma (gamma->linear). And at the end of the pipeline you can transform it back to gamma space as a part of the tonemapping (cinematic curve includes linear->gamma transformation for free). This way it's easy to make the game look identical in all platforms. Of course if you need to blend to a render target in gamma space, then you need hardware gamma to do the blending correctly (PS3 doesn't even support gamma correct blending). Naturally you can use 10 bit formats or float formats to get rid of the gamma issue completely if you want.

 

[bkilian]

It's not a bug. Instead of a gamma curve, the XBox uses a piecewise linear approximation. When used correctly, it's pretty close to equivalent (and a lot cheaper). When not used correctly (ie, just doing what you would normally do if it were a proper curve), it messes up the gamma ramp. The bug is in the game not using the correct gamma normalization, not the xbox.

Edit: Doh, didn't see the other explanation up top. My post is a little redundant

 

[HokutoNoKen]

Gamma: 360 vs PS3

http://filmicgames.com/archives/14

/ Ken

 

[uso]

This article is very good and informative.

So the problem is on the Xbox side and not on PS3, contrary to the common knowledge

 

[TheWretched]

Well... a lot of PC games usually have the same looks as the PS3... so it was a given, at least to a degree.

It makes me wonder though why a LOT of developers don't seem to care at all, that many PS3 renditions look washed out. Though this can be corrected with good TV settings.