ARM based Game Consoles on the way?

[OlegSH]

They'd visibly look much better if their PC GPUs had access to GDDR6X over infinity cache

And, probably, would have had an even larger die area, so I'm not sure whether this would have moved the needle.

Are you implying that Microsoft and Sony were still somehow forced to choose AMD regardless ?

Of course not. The forces behind AMD's adoption were backward compatibility, likely good prices, and the safety of the choice. Yet, you can see how the safe choice turned out for Microsoft. Given the lack of better hardware, exclusive games, or at least a better business model, this outcome was very much expected. So unless something in the equation changes, I expect the same outcome in the next generation.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

Again, they knowingly chose AMD in spite these limitations so let's not somehow pretend that others weren't an option even if they thought that they were inferior for their own purposes ...

Unless you can show there were other IHVs offering suitable parts at an appropriate price, there's no debate here. There are many factors at play in this decision, with priorities changing over time such that next gen might well have different considerations.

Existing Was AMD a bad choice for consoles discussion

 

[Lurkmass]

And, probably, would have had an even larger die area, so I'm not sure whether this would have moved the needle.

It would do a lot if current consoles serve as any example since they likely wouldn't have needed to implement infinity cache at all and very likely would've saved on die area ...

Unless you can show there were other IHVs offering suitable parts at an appropriate price, there's no debate here. There are many factors at play in this decision, with priorities changing over time such that next gen might well have different considerations.

That's not what I intended to demonstrate at all. My argument here is that there was no "mysterious outside force" where console vendors were purely obligated to choose their current vendor

Sure priorities could potentially change but I'm not really interested in speculating all *THAT* far into the future ...

 

[OlegSH]

It would do a lot if current consoles serve as any example since they likely wouldn't have needed to implement infinity cache at all and very likely would've saved on die area ...

You can cut the caches on any architecture - that’s not a magical benefit. However, I expect that architectures enjoying larger caches on PC will suffer more from cutting these caches

 

[Shifty Geezer]

That's not what I intended to demonstrate at all. My argument here is that there was no "mysterious outside force" where console vendors were purely obligated to choose their current vendor

Sure priorities could potentially change but I'm not really interested in speculating all *THAT* far into the future ...

I don't understand your argument. The topic is RT and ML hardware in next gen. You've said RT isn't that important, rasterisation is more important, no? And you cite the current consoles as evidence. But the choice of SOCs was affected by other factors and so doesn't show any disinterest or prioritisation of RT or ML. Likewise going forwards, there's nothing in current gen to show whether RT and ML will or won't be important. However, there is both a movement in the GPU sector to increase these aspects, and we have one example of a new machine, PS5Pro, with notable additions of these features.

If I'm following it wrong, could you please outline your argument to make it clear for me.

 

[Lurkmass]

I don't understand your argument. The topic is RT and ML hardware in next gen.

This is the post that started the entire line of responses ...

You've said RT isn't that important, rasterisation is more important, no? And you cite the current consoles as evidence.

For the set of upcoming software on both AAA game console vendors, is that somehow not true ?

But the choice of SOCs was affected by other factors and so doesn't show any disinterest or prioritisation of RT or ML. Likewise going forwards, there's nothing in current gen to show whether RT and ML will or won't be important.

When we look at the string of very recent AAA releases and in the immediate near future where a good majority of them are going to be graphically advanced UE5 titles can you still somehow make a sane argument that RT is "taking off" in game development when the said middleware driving much of it doesn't have a great history of promoting RT hardware ?

However, there is both a movement in the GPU sector to increase these aspects, and we have one example of a new machine, PS5Pro, with notable additions of these features.

Rumors are rumors but the actual code drops (mesa/LLVM) may paint a very different picture compared to everyone else's ideas. Either way we don't have much solid information out there ...

 

[Shifty Geezer]

For the set of upcoming software on both AAA game console vendors, is that somehow not true ?

We're talking about the hardware choices of the next gen consoles that'll run from 2026-2032 to whenever. I think Unreal Engine will get a few updates over that period to make better use of available hardware.

When we look at the string of very recent AAA releases and in the immediate near future

But these games are being designed around consoles that lack RTRT and ML hardware!

Rumors are rumors but the actual code drops (mesa/LLVM) may paint a very different picture compared to everyone else's ideas. Either way we don't have much solid information out there ...

It's not a rumour, but leaks confirmed via Digital Foundry who's source say PSSR should even be applicable to existing titles.

Also more details

A 67% increase in base rasterisation, but considerable increases in RTRT and the addition of ML upscaling hardware.

 

[Lurkmass]

We're talking about the hardware choices of the next gen consoles that'll run from 2026-2032 to whenever. I think Unreal Engine will get a few updates over that period to make better use of available hardware.

Again, I'm not originally interested in speculating super far ahead timelines ...

But these games are being designed around consoles that lack RTRT and ML hardware!

Doesn't go against my basis that they still ultimately wanted to make those games ? Does it ?

It's not a rumour, but leaks confirmed via Digital Foundry who's source say PSSR should even be applicable to existing titles.

Also more details

A 67% increase in base rasterisation, but considerable increases in RTRT and the addition of ML upscaling hardware.

Forgive me but Digital Foundry repeating hearsay (no matter who it is) is not up to my standards for reputability ...

I would highly prefer going for more solid sources of evidence like code dumps, NDA'd documentation, verified developers with SDKs, or even official information released to the public by the vendor themselves ...

 

[Shifty Geezer]

Again, I'm not originally interested in speculating super far ahead timelines ...

Um...what exactly are you discussing then? Because everyone else here is talking about next-gen hardware. That's the topic of this thread. If you're not talking about next-gen hardware choices, what are you talking about??

Forgive me but Digital Foundry repeating hearsay (no matter who it is) is not up to my standards for reputability ...

I would highly prefer going for more solid sources of evidence like code dumps, NDA'd documentation, verified developers with SDKs, or even official information released to the public by the vendor themselves ...

What about published content on PlayStation developer portal? Or DF talking to verified developers?

 

[davis.anthony]

Would an ARM system be able to offer backwards compatibility with PS4/Xbone and PS5/XSX games while at least matching the games original performance targets?

And would Sony or Microsoft be willing to forfeit backwards compatibility for the sake of using an AMR based architecture if they couldn't offer acceptable backwards compatibility?

 

[Flappy Pannus]

Would an ARM system be able to offer backwards compatibility with PS4/Xbone and PS5/XSX games while at least matching the games original performance targets?

I don't see why not. Apple added specific instructions in their M CPU's to aid in X86 emulation performance, no reason Sony/MS couldn't do the same for their arm variant. I don't think emulating a Zen2 CPU in the expected timeframe of these new gens (2028?) would be a herculean task.

 

[Lurkmass]

Um...what exactly are you discussing then? Because everyone else here is talking about next-gen hardware. That's the topic of this thread. If you're not talking about next-gen hardware choices, what are you talking about??

@Bold Not in the context of my post that lead down to this discussion ...

What about published content on PlayStation developer portal? Or DF talking to verified developers?

The public does not have access to the developer portal so we can't do anything but speculate over there and did the set of developers demystify their identities to DF or let alone to the public ? It's no good if they remain anonymous since we can't hold them (both DF and their informant in question) accountable ...

Even if what we do know that what they're saying *is true*, is their 'interpretation' of these set of statements accurate ? How do we know things like the AI upscaler isn't potentially "software based" like XeSS or how do we *quantify* the improvement of the RT implementation ?

 

[Lurkmass]

I don't see why not. Apple added specific instructions in their M CPU's to aid in X86 emulation performance, no reason Sony/MS couldn't do the same for their arm variant. I don't think emulating a Zen2 CPU in the expected timeframe of these new gens (2028?) would be a herculean task.

The "herculean task" at hand would be is to convince ARM vendors to adopt a 256-bit implementation of SVE/2 when ARM themselves backtracked in this regard with Neoverse N2 (128-bit SVE/SVE2) in comparison to Neoverse N1 and it looks to be the same for Neoverse N3 (128-bit SVE/SVE2 again) ...

 

[DavidGraham]

How do we know things like the AI upscaler isn't potentially "software based" like XeSS or how do we *quantify* the improvement of the RT implementation ?

Because it was their clear and defined intent? Their vision? an NPU, ML based upscaling, and more advanced DXR?

Xbox planning hybrid cloud gaming platform for 2028

Microsoft is planning a "hybrid" Xbox platform for cloud gaming for 2028. According to documents leaked earlier this we…

www.gamesindustry.biz

 

[Charlietus]

Because it was their clear and defined intent? Their vision? an NPU, ML based upscaling, and more advanced DXR?

Xbox planning hybrid cloud gaming platform for 2028

Microsoft is planning a "hybrid" Xbox platform for cloud gaming for 2028. According to documents leaked earlier this we…

www.gamesindustry.biz

Hardware accelerated upscaling and better RT are a given. But those documents from 2021 (?) aren't really reliable anymore. Plans have clearly changed for Xbox in recent times.

 

[Lurkmass]

Because it was their clear and defined intent? Their vision? an NPU, ML based upscaling, and more advanced DXR?

Xbox planning hybrid cloud gaming platform for 2028

Microsoft is planning a "hybrid" Xbox platform for cloud gaming for 2028. According to documents leaked earlier this we…

www.gamesindustry.biz

I thought I was responding about potential new PS hardware in my previous post but I guess I'll take a stab at your reply ...

This entire slide reads like it was created by some business suit that has no deep understanding of technology instead of a technical architect ...

NPUs as they are currently designed CAN'T be used to implement any graphics techniques and that includes AI upscaling too! The architectures that the slide does mention is so far into the future that features like "next gen DXR" might as well be entirely speculation at this point given that there's been literally no major API functionality updates/extensions so far ...

"Micropolygon rendering optimizations" ? Really ? Especially when Epic Games are moving to compute materials ?

 

[trinibwoy]

@Bold Not in the context of my post that lead down to this discussion

It’s hard to follow the logic of that post though. I think you’re saying that console vendors aren’t interested in RT and ML hardware for future consoles because they want to build games for current consoles that don’t feature RT and ML. The former has nothing to do with the latter.

 

[DavidGraham]

This entire slide reads like it was created by some business suit that has no deep understanding of technology instead of a technical architect ...

Whomever created it, it's the company strategic plan, and so is Sony's. Your refusal to grasp this despite all the information that says otherwise is strange indeed.

 

[Frenetic Pony]

Because it was their clear and defined intent? Their vision? an NPU, ML based upscaling, and more advanced DXR?

Xbox planning hybrid cloud gaming platform for 2028

Microsoft is planning a "hybrid" Xbox platform for cloud gaming for 2028. According to documents leaked earlier this we…

www.gamesindustry.biz

This is a generic list of bulletpoints that the engineers gave to the execs, and it's from years ago. Whatever they're doing they've changed it up significantly. Even more, they've all but officially announced they're already working on some next gen handheld that sounds like a Steamdeck competitor coming out in 2026 by all accounts.

 

[DavidGraham]

This is a generic list of bulletpoints that the engineers gave to the execs, and it's from years ago. Whatever they're doing they've changed it up significantly. Even more

Strategic goals and general design are set years and years in advance, this was the case in every console gen, nothing here is likely to change.