The Game Technology discussion thread *Read first post before posting*

I think those pictures look great, but i don´t consider them more realistic looking than this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5-BxfiPgTSk

I don't know, firstly it's off screen compared to direct captures.

And all the trees look 2D and very flat, the entire track is also green - and the Laguna Seca is dry and brown most of the year (as those real life pics) posted earlier show.

What does help is the high contrast lighting which makes the track look more realistic.

That's probably the biggest problem with the Forza series the lighting and saturation give the game an unrealistic look.
 
I don't know, firstly it's off screen compared to direct captures.

And all the trees look 2D and very flat, the entire track is also green - and the Laguna Seca is dry and brown most of the year (as those real life pics) posted earlier show.

What does help is the high contrast lighting which makes the track look more realistic.

That's probably the biggest problem with the Forza series the lighting and saturation give the game an unrealistic look.

Direct captures is really so so from the PS3, the examples you found are pretty much among the worst i could find on that site. That stream is the only one i could find with Laguna, and i think it hits the "tone" pretty good. I am not an expert on Textures in racing games, but unlike many ofther genres, the idea of graphics in a racing game should be to look great in motion, and not when frozen i guess that has some influence on how the textures are created to begin with.
 
And as for the simple and plain tracks arguments - they should be easier to make look realistic right?
That depends on the engine, as I'll explain below.
The question is that of consistency of quality which is especially pertinent for a game which has been in development for 5 years with a limitless budget.
Newsflash - no amount of budget for software development can overcome hardware limitations! There's 512 MBs RAM to be used for all textures, scenery and cars. You couldn't spend a trillion dollars and get GT5 running on a PS2!

Comprimise and limited resources? Where was that a problem on all the other detailed tracks? It just simply does not explain why some tracks have great detail and very convincing of the real thing in life while others lack very much of the same detail despite the real life photo comparisons...
I don't think you understand engine limitations. You can create a game engine that works to provide fabulous detail as the player travels along a set route, but can't provide freedom of movement, or you can provide a game that allows the player to turn and move anywhere, but will need to pair back on the image quality to fit more in at any given moment. You can create a racing engine that supports 16 highly detailed cars and limited scenery, or a racing game that allocates more of the finite console hardware to creating prettier scenery and reduce the car fidelty. That's where the compromise comes in. AFAICS all GT5's scenery is simple geometry with a texture or three slapped on it. In towns this looks okay as the buildings are basically collections of textured boxes, but nature looks rough when modelled this way. To make dull, flat tracks like TTGT more convincing would need a different scenery model using layered, transparent geometry etc., and that's not how GT5 is set up. PD would basically have to write a different rendering engine for natural scenery tracks that supports long grass and more detailed trees and such, or give up some of their car shader performance for give less realistic cars and spend those shader cycles on making more realistic terrain.
 
Another absolutely atrocious screen from GT5. I really don't believe that a AAA title can have such bad looking scenery - they should have budgeted for some level of track detail - even if it was mediocre. It hardly seems sensible to have photorealistic cars paired with environments from two generations ago, I mean look at NFS:HP2 the cars look fantastic, amazing shaders, come quite close to matching GT5 in gameplay and the draw distance is 15 km - now surely GT5 will not be able to compete since it's running at 60fps but it shouldn't have so big a disparity in visuals.

5194362861_cb5a8fe5e6_o.jpg


And here you will definitely be able to notice the PS1 quality low res 2D foliage as it is directly in the foreground and not in the background like other pics:

I also noticed that not only do they tend to use 2D tree sprites, it's often the SAME 2d tree sprite repeated over and over again

And in this screen, the Eiger Nordland track looks exactly like it did back in GT HD, replete with pathethic 2D mountains, nothing like the bump mapped mountains you get in Forza :
5194363017_e1f78c5fee_o.jpg

FM3_E3_Montserrat_2(2).jpg


What is exactly the difference between how car lighting and shadowing (and reflections) is done in GT5 vs Forza 3? Is it primarily due to better tech better or artistry? IIRC GT5 Prologue did environment reflections by projecting the road surface texture on the car's exterior, does GT5 still do this?
 
Another absolutely atrocious screen from GT5. I really don't believe that a AAA title can have such bad looking scenery - they should have budgeted for some level of track detail - even if it was mediocre. It hardly seems sensible to have photorealistic cars paired with environments from two generations ago, I mean look at NFS:HP2 the cars look fantastic, amazing shaders, come quite close to matching GT5 in gameplay and the draw distance is 15 km - now surely GT5 will not be able to compete since it's running at 60fps but it shouldn't have so big a disparity in visuals.

5194362861_cb5a8fe5e6_o.jpg


And here you will definitely be able to notice the PS1 quality low res 2D foliage as it is directly in the foreground and not in the background like other pics:

I also noticed that not only do they tend to use 2D tree sprites, it's often the SAME 2d tree sprite repeated over and over again

And in this screen, the Eiger Nordland track looks exactly like it did back in GT HD, replete with pathethic 2D mountains, nothing like the bump mapped mountains you get in Forza :
5194363017_e1f78c5fee_o.jpg

FM3_E3_Montserrat_2(2).jpg


What is exactly the difference between how car lighting and shadowing (and reflections) is done in GT5 vs Forza 3? Is it primarily due to better tech better or artistry? IIRC GT5 Prologue did environment reflections by projecting the road surface texture on the car's exterior, does GT5 still do this?

Thanks for all this technical detail.
 
You can create a racing engine that supports 16 highly detailed cars and limited scenery, or a racing game that allocates more of the finite console hardware to creating prettier scenery and reduce the car fidelty. That's where the compromise comes in. AFAICS all GT5's scenery is simple geometry with a texture or three slapped on it. In towns this looks okay as the buildings are basically collections of textured boxes, but nature looks rough when modelled this way. To make dull, flat tracks like TTGT more convincing would need a different scenery model using layered, transparent geometry etc., and that's not how GT5 is set up. PD would basically have to write a different rendering engine for natural scenery tracks that supports long grass and more detailed trees and such, or give up some of their car shader performance for give less realistic cars and spend those shader cycles on making more realistic terrain.

Why couldn't they just use a LOD system for rendering foliage?
Say LOD2 are the simple, low res 2D sprites they're using for trees atm, LOD1 can be GTA4 style intersecting sprites with higher resolutions and LOD0 can be full 3D speedtree style trees.

Then depending on the scenery complexity of the track they can just turn on or off the
different LOD levels, so some detailed city track will only use LOD2 or LOD1 while simple tracks like the Top Gear test track will use LOD1 trees?

They wouldn't have to write a different rendering engine to do that.
 
Why couldn't they just use a LOD system for rendering foliage?
Say LOD2 are the simple, low res 2D sprites they're using for trees atm, LOD1 can be GTA4 style intersecting sprites with higher resolutions and LOD0 can be full 3D speedtree style trees.

Then depending on the scenery complexity of the track they can just turn on or off the
different LOD levels, so some detailed city track will only use LOD2 or LOD1 while simple tracks like the Top Gear test track will use LOD1 trees?

They wouldn't have to write a different rendering engine to do that.

Even completely ignoring the added time needed to implement fancy foliage rendering and for artists to author it, LOD'ed high-quality foliage is still more expensive than low-quality foliage.

They're trying to make a game that runs at close-to-60fps at above-720p res on the PS3. There's going to be compromises.
 
Another absolutely atrocious screen from GT5. I really don't believe that a AAA title can have such bad looking scenery - they should have budgeted for some level of track detail - even if it was mediocre. It hardly seems sensible to have photorealistic cars paired with environments from two generations ago, I mean look at NFS:HP2 the cars look fantastic, amazing shaders, come quite close to matching GT5 in gameplay and the draw distance is 15 km - now surely GT5 will not be able to compete since it's running at 60fps but it shouldn't have so big a disparity in visuals.

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4089/5194362861_cb5a8fe5e6_o.jpg

And here you will definitely be able to notice the PS1 quality low res 2D foliage as it is directly in the foreground and not in the background like other pics:

I also noticed that not only do they tend to use 2D tree sprites, it's often the SAME 2d tree sprite repeated over and over again

And in this screen, the Eiger Nordland track looks exactly like it did back in GT HD, replete with pathethic 2D mountains, nothing like the bump mapped mountains you get in Forza :
http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5001/5194363017_e1f78c5fee_o.jpg
http://cdn.forzamotorsport.net/uplo...Screenshots/FM3_E3_Montserrat_2(2).jpg?n=6962

What is exactly the difference between how car lighting and shadowing (and reflections) is done in GT5 vs Forza 3? Is it primarily due to better tech better or artistry? IIRC GT5 Prologue did environment reflections by projecting the road surface texture on the car's exterior, does GT5 still do this?

Can you provide gameplay shots from both games with technical insight? Two gameplay images from one game and one prerendered PR shot from another game is not fair comparison.

Thanks.
 
I own HL2, it gives far greater play area than any strict A->B racing game and HL2 is a linear FPS. This means more to render in detail as player can approach more of the scene and it needs to be of high quality enough. Thus avg texture budget needs to be bigger, more collision detection, more AI navigation nods, handle battles, particles, animations etc etc than if it was a racing game. You cannot have tree sprites like in GT5 for a FPS/TPS where you can get close to the trees when the sprites have the quality you found early 2000 in games, no you would need a more detailed tree hence this tree sprite/wall shortcut wont work except for non reachable areas with some distance from player. Also game is from early 2004.

I was referring to your "enable noclip". And there HL2 is just as guilty as most other FPS there are. I was simply using HL2 as an example, as I played around with it the most. Try Lost Coast for example, and fly to the houses in the back... They don't even have a back side. Why bother making it "real" when you can't see it unless you use a glitch or cheat? Makes no sense. Why would you willingly throw away performance for something normal people don't see OR care about? Yes, in GT5 I can stop on the track and look at the trees... but why would I want to do that in a racing game? It's like trying to go shopping in your FPS supermarket level.

But current "top" shooters like CODBLOPS are probably even more guilty of this than HL2, but I have no proof for this at all.

My "problem" with your post is mostly that you say "hey, racing games cheat much more than FPS", which is simply not true, at least not always. Plus, GT5 actually has mostly stable 60Hz, compared to CODBLOPS' 40Hz or less. Looking at NFS:HP for example, as a 30Hz game, it has much more elaborate environments. But why not, it simply has twice the time to render all that stuff, and it's open world to boot.
 
@(((interference)))
What a pathetic comparison - bullshot with one of the worst direct feeds ...
Have You played FM 3 on that track? Its quite ugly, especially 2D background and FM 3 has more 2D trees and bushes than You think.

I also noticed that not only do they tend to use 2D tree sprites, it's often the SAME 2d tree sprite repeated over and over again
And Forza use what? Different? Just try to compare Nurburgring where there are many different trees in every corner. Even drivers sometimes talked that they can recognize turns by the types trees near to them. Now look at the screen from GT 5 and FM 3, in FM 3 You have 3-4 types of trees reused on most tracks, in GT 5 You have high res sprites that are photos from real track sections.

FM3 Nurburgring
http://strony.aster.pl/kakarotto/compare/5.jpg
http://strony.aster.pl/kakarotto/compare/10.jpg
http://strony.aster.pl/kakarotto/compare/11.jpg

GT 5 Nurburgring
http://www.gtpla.net/wp-content/uploads/2010/06/gran-turismo-5-e3-2010-screenshots-2-51.jpg
http://www.gtpla.net/wp-content/uploads/2010/06/gran-turismo-5-e3-2010-screenshots-2-50.jpg
http://www.gtpla.net/wp-content/uploads/2010/06/gran-turismo-5-e3-2010-screenshots-2-52.jpg

And about "environments from two generations ago" You really think that FM 3 has so much better tracks? Look here
http://strony.aster.pl/kakarotto/compare/1.jpg
http://strony.aster.pl/kakarotto/compare/2.jpg
http://strony.aster.pl/kakarotto/compare/3.jpg
http://strony.aster.pl/kakarotto/compare/4.jpg
http://strony.aster.pl/kakarotto/compare/6.jpg

And both game have trade offs like this
http://strony.aster.pl/kakarotto/compare/7.jpg
http://strony.aster.pl/kakarotto/compare/8.jpg
http://strony.aster.pl/kakarotto/compare/9.jpg
 
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Even completely ignoring the added time needed to implement fancy foliage rendering and for artists to author it, LOD'ed high-quality foliage is still more expensive than low-quality foliage.

Artist resources poured into a little foliage are dwarfed by the amount of work spent on the hundreds of cars... it wasn't a question of monetary budget.
Rendering is a different issue though.

They're trying to make a game that runs at close-to-60fps at above-720p res on the PS3. There's going to be compromises.

Nice to see that it's clear, instead of denial. Yes, even GT5 can't do everything; they have nice cars, nice clear image and 60fps, and I'm sure it's going to be a pretty damn good game.
 
Can you provide gameplay shots from both games with technical insight? Two gameplay images from one game and one prerendered PR shot from another game is not fair comparison.

Thanks.

It's hard to find true gameplay shots from Forza, the only ones I can find are from Digital Foundry but in any case those 'PR shots' are more like photo mode shots and basically the only difference between them and in game is the lack of aliasing and better texture filtering (and apparently full transparencies instead of A2C).

Watch this Digital Foundry playthrough of the track:
http://www.eurogamer.net/tv_video.php?playlist_id=41394&size=hd

This is a video showing some of the more interesting F3 environments in replay mode:
http://www.eurogamer.net/tv_video.php?playlist_id=43073&size=hd

@(((interference)))
What a pathetic comparison - bullshot with one of the worst direct feeds ...
Have You played FM 3 on that track? Its quite ugly, especially 2D background and FM 3 has more 2D trees and bushes than You think.


And Forza use what? Different? Just try to compare Nurburgring where there are many different trees in every corner. Even drivers sometimes talked that they can recognize turns by the types trees near to them. Now look at the screen from GT 5 and FM 3, in FM 3 You have 3-4 types of trees reused on most tracks, in GT 5 You have high res sprites that are photos from real track sections.

FM3 Nurburgring


GT 5 Nurburgring

And about "environments from two generations ago" You really think that FM 3 has so much better tracks? Look here
[

Sigh, I couldn't find any in game shots of the mountains on the track (even if they were plenty of direct capture F3 shots available it'd be hard to get one showing off track scenery for obvious reasons).

And if you think that track is quite ugly - you don't seem to have played it as it was from the F3 demo and the environment got a lot of praise in people's reactions to the demo - sure it's not all 3D but the 2D backdrops are done very well and look very convincing (especially the mountains).

Those shots were definitely representative of in game geometry, lighting and texturing, just download the F3 demo if you don't believe me.

As for your F3 shots, the first pic is with the car flying above the track! and two others are zoomed in extremely close to some stands so you can hardly call that representative of gameplay - all the GT5 shots I have posted are from that site someone linked earlier and are not my own shots handpicked to make GT5 look bad, unlike these Forza 3 ones which you seem to have taken for some comparison of the two games judging by their URL so please don't accuse me of bias.

The Forza 3 rendition of the Nurburgring track looks perfectly fine (keep in mind that the shots are not from the same section of track as the GT shots)- what makes it look less realistic than GTs is the non-realistic lighting Turn 10 uses. (the sky is also overcast in the Forza track)
10.jpg

gran-turismo-5-e3-2010-screenshots-2-52.jpg


Plus, the fact that the Nurburgring track looks good, just reinforces my point that the engine can draw decent foliage and some tracks simply have been overlooked.
 
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Very little technical discussion from some quarters. From this point on, any screenshots have to be accompanied with descriptions of what technology they are showing.

Looking at KKRT's images, it seems to me (((interference)))'s main issue is actually artistry. If the GT trees didn't have dayglow tops, they'd blend together like other racers.
 
Very little technical discussion from some quarters. From this point on, any screenshots have to be accompanied with descriptions of what technology they are showing.

Looking at KKRT's images, it seems to me (((interference)))'s main issue is actually artistry. If the GT trees didn't have dayglow tops, they'd blend together like other racers.

Well that's what I thought I was arguing (ie some tracks are sorely lacking in polish) - I got a bit distracted by the talk of not being able to render more realistic looking foliage and so suggested the LOD system - but those pics of Nurburgring show that it seems to be done to artistry as much as anything:

For example this foliage does not seem as detailed/hi res as the Nurburgring trees:
5194362861_cb5a8fe5e6_o.jpg


And are these mountains in F3, 3D or not? This thread on GT5planet says they are but I've seen analysis like this say they're not:
http://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?t=120873&page=20
forza3.png


They certainly look 3D in gameplay and replays and definitely don't look as obviously 2D as the GT5P mountains on the Nordland track:
gt5.png


Those comparisons (I wouldn't vouch on their technical merits) also remind me of my earlier question; has the way car environment reflections are handled (ie. projected road textures) changed from Prologue to the final game?
 
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That's actually not shadowing on the rear spoiler, but what we call reflection occlusion - where the car should reflect itself, thus blocking out the reflection of the environment. Obviously, ray-traced reflections have no problem with it, but when using reflection maps the lack of this self-reflection makes the result less realistic. ILM developed reflection occlusion as a trick to solve this problem, back with Pearl Harbour, by raytracing this occlusion pass separately. PRMan was too slow and bad at raytracing at that time to do the full monty.

The problem is that it should be a view-dependent "effect" because reflections themselves are view-dependent - so it can't be baked into textures. I don't know how exactly these racers fake it, but I suspect they cheat even more and simply go with a baked reflection occlusion map. You usually see the car from behind so it doesn't matter that much if it's wrong from other viewpoints.
 
The trees in that Nurburgring track shot are 2D not 3D.

Yes, I know - I wasn't suggesting that GT5 should have only 3D trees, just some that don't look so obviously 2D and fake (especially when they're in the foreground).

That's actually not shadowing on the rear spoiler, but what we call reflection occlusion - where the car should reflect itself, thus blocking out the reflection of the environment. Obviously, ray-traced reflections have no problem with it, but when using reflection maps the lack of this self-reflection makes the result less realistic. ILM developed reflection occlusion as a trick to solve this problem, back with Pearl Harbour, by raytracing this occlusion pass separately. PRMan was too slow and bad at raytracing at that time to do the full monty.

The problem is that it should be a view-dependent "effect" because reflections themselves are view-dependent - so it can't be baked into textures. I don't know how exactly these racers fake it, but I suspect they cheat even more and simply go with a baked reflection occlusion map. You usually see the car from behind so it doesn't matter that much if it's wrong from other viewpoints.

Oh ok - I think most people won't notice the reflection occlusion, not when you have stuff like the huge 2D mountains in view. Are the F3 mountains 3D btw?

As for lighting - I'm not sure about this at all, but I remember reading somewhere that GT5 uses baked hi res cube maps for its cars assisted by dynamic lighting (approximating a ray traced look).
F3 seems to use only dynamic lighting (in gameplay at least) - with quite poorly chosen contrast and saturation, lots of user generated photomode screens make the game look far more realistic by simply tweaking the saturation and contrast in the scene, it works for GT5 (like the overexposed Nurburgring shots) is there any technical reason why Turn 10 can't do the same or was it a purely artistic reason?
 
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The trees in that Nurburgring track shot are 2D not 3D.

The sillyness of these discussions drive me nuts. For instance, those arrows pointing at 'low quality 2D backdrop' in the GT shot, with arrows pointing to mountains that actually are 3D with some very good textures on them. Lots of similar nonsense going on - I think we can do better than that.

And yeah, the trees on Nurburgring are 2D. But at least there are so many of them there (and they seem quite varied too), that I think it was a good decision.

We now have various track and car combos in both games though, so I'm expecting we'll be able to get some really neat comparison shots. ;)
 
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