The Game Technology discussion thread *Read first post before posting*

[nightshade]

I just saw these two images, and I am pretty surprised to see that Standard cars are really nothing more than imported GT4 models, the geometry is low, no normal maps, bad textures and a blurry cubemap in the name of environment reflection (and all this even when you are in photo mode). Years of development time and yet 80% of cars (since there are around 800 standard cars) are of this quality ?

http://image.bayimg.com/aaakjaadn.jpg
http://image.bayimg.com/aaakmaadn.jpg

 

[Billy Idol]

I just saw these two images, and I am pretty surprised to see that Standard cars are really nothing more than imported GT4 models, the geometry is low, no normal maps, bad textures and a blurry cubemap in the name of environment reflection (and all this even when you are in photo mode). Years of development time and yet 80% of cars (since there are around 800 standard cars) are of this quality ?

http://image.bayimg.com/aaakjaadn.jpg
http://image.bayimg.com/aaakmaadn.jpg

are these the GT4 ingame models, or the GT4 high LOD (photomode) models?

 

[(((interference)))]

why people keep posting stuff like this ?
GT5's environments are average at best,but this is 720p,60fps game with really great lighting ,highly detailed car models with great shaders,12 to 16 cars on track and all this running on 4-5 year old machine so it is acceptable I think.

Because every racing game gets compared to GT5 - even Digital Foundry note:

GT5P emerges as the classier-looking game, the standard bearer in terms of graphical accomplishment - not just up against Forza, but compared to every console driving game

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-forza3-evolution-article?page=4

PGR4 was an example of what can be done on the 360 with technically and artistically capable developers (ie. not Turn 10)

I just saw these two images, and I am pretty surprised to see that Standard cars are really nothing more than imported GT4 models, the geometry is low, no normal maps, bad textures and a blurry cubemap in the name of environment reflection (and all this even when you are in photo mode). Years of development time and yet 80% of cars (since there are around 800 standard cars) are of this quality ?

http://image.bayimg.com/aaakjaadn.jpg
http://image.bayimg.com/aaakmaadn.jpg

That has got to be some kind of LOD bug...there is no way GT5 will release with 80% of cars looking like that.

They've had 5 years on the game, even Forza 3 managed to have 400 fully modelled (interiors, 500k-1m polygons) cars done in two years.

If this is true, how come this is the first we've seen of it? I'm sure some of the others with early copies of the game would have complained.

 

[SteelOak]

Because every racing game gets compared to GT5 - even Digital Foundry note:

of course we can compare every racing game to GT, but You have said that PGR4's environments are stunning EVEN compared to GT5 and I think GT5's environments are not so good especially when we compare them with one of the best looking environments in racing games on consoles(PGR4)
Simple geometry and low track detail are really obvious and some tracks are just GT4 tracks with updated textures

GT5 strenght is definitely somewhere else.

(sorry for my english)

 

[djskribbles]

It seems the environments vary in quality in GT5, because that's one of the worst shots that were posted and is not an accurate representation of all the tracks in GT5.

 

[SteelOak]

let's hope this is worst looking GT5 track and yes I know there are better looking tracks like London for example.

 

[(((interference)))]

let's hope this is worst looking GT5 track and yes I know there are better looking tracks like London for example.

Yes, I meant PGR4 environments were good compared to the better looking GT5 city tracks, like London, not that horrendous track.

Perhaps, they also imported some tracks straight from GT4 like they seem to have with the standard car models (yet to be confirmed).

 

[SteelOak]

It's also worth a mention that in PGR4 they modeled pretty large area in each city so this is not only closed course.
There is even this tourist mode where you can drive freely in each "whole" city.
I think fair comparison between PGR4 and GT5 is possible only on cloused courses like Nurburgring or Michellin Test Track(not present in GT5).

 

[djskribbles]

Let's not forget that PGR4 is 30fps and is 2xAA vs 60fps 4xAA (or 1280x1080 2xAA).

 

[2real4tv]

Their seems to be some graphical problems with GT5:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nqWBRbBWRqg

edit: Yeah pgr4 vs gt5 is pretty ridiculous it should be compared to the other 30fps driving games on consoles.

 

[(((interference)))]

Let's not forget that PGR4 is 30fps and is 2xAA vs 60fps 4xAA (or 1280x1080 2xAA).

Yes, I didn't forget, but it is a 3 year old game. Blur does 720p with 4xAA and while it is only 30fps it has 20 cars on track, full destruction and insane effects.

So yes, you can't directly compare - I was using PGR4 as an example of excellent environments for a racer (and not compromising on car detail).

 

[ultragpu]

Yes, I meant PGR4 environments were good compared to the better looking GT5 city tracks, like London, not that horrendous track.

GT5's better lighting, rendering resolution, car models, and weather effects all represent a better looking game overall. Sure you can delve into individual bits but it's the whole presentation that counts. I'd imagine if it's a 30fps game it would smoke PGR4 if we scale things up.

 

[djskribbles]

Totally different games too. Not only is it half the framerate, PGR4/Blur are flashy arcadey games whereas GT5 goes for realism.

 

[SteelOak]

GT5's better lighting, rendering resolution, car models, and weather effects all represent a better looking game overall.

if for better looking you mean more realistic than maybe you are right, it is really subjective
One thing that isn't subjective is that GT5 has way better car models(poly count).
Weather effects in GT5 aren't that great either and they causing artifacts.
Besides we should stop comparing this two different games,they both focuses on different things and have their strenghts and weaknesses.
IMO "better overall look" is a matter of taste and this forum isn't about tastes

 

[Toaddio]

if for better looking you mean more realistic than maybe you are right, it is really subjective
One thing that isn't subjective is that GT5 has way better car models(poly count).
Weather effects in GT5 aren't that great either and they causing artifacts.
Besides we should stop comparing this two different games,they both focuses on different things and have their strenghts and weaknesses.
IMO "better overall look" is a matter of taste and this forum isn't about tastes

I don't think the discussion is about artistic choice as that is subjective. It's clear though that regardless of the artistic choices a developer would make there's more going on in GT5. The artists had more freedom to work even if you aren't happy with some of the choices they made.

 

[Neb]

Saw this which compares same or similar locations of both racing games. Both got pros and cons but neither outdoes each other by a large margin IMO.

Pick your flavor and discuss technical differences.
http://www.gamereactor.se/nyheter/25153/Gran+Turismo+5+vs+Forza+3/

 

[Arwin]

Saw this which compares same or similar locations of both racing games. Both got pros and cons but neither outdoes each other by a large margin IMO.

Pick your flavor and discuss technical differences.
http://www.gamereactor.se/nyheter/25153/Gran+Turismo+5+vs+Forza+3/

I wouldn't bother until proper comparison shots show up. I can't believe they haven't bothered to pick the same car / track combos properly, as there are plenty of cars and tracks that appear in both. That said, if we look at Laguna in particular, the track looks a bit better in Forza. (These are weird captures though - the powerlines never look like this when playing, not in either game I think)

As I posted on GAF:

These games have a lot of same track and car combos. You can even change the cockpit view of GT5 to match the one in Forza almost exactly.

Can't you do better? I would:

- pick a matching car/track combo
- set the speed measurements similar
- drive the cars at the exact same speeds (a shot at 0, 50, 100, 150km/h)
- do this from the different camera angles
- do a test for the AI cars separately. Harder to do slightly, but should still be possible (you can set cars to 'one make' for both)

Additionally of course you can also choose to try and find some of the best and worst looking bits for each game and compare those.

It's still a limited comparison, what with one game having to accomodate 50-100% more cars and such, having day night cycles and weather on some tracks, etc, but it's something at least.

Certainly though one thing for me is sure - apart from that the cars in Forza almost always look quite a bit worse (a few of the later Forza DLC cars I recently bought excepted, which look pretty good), and some of the tracks in Forza looking a bit better, the single player portion of Forza is tiny and boring compared to GT5s.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

Can we please get beyond "looks a bit better/worse" and onto a little recognition of the technical differences rather than aesthetic, such as better shaders, higher poly counts, etc. We have lots of "this looks better" but no discussion on why which is what this thread is supposed to be all about!

 

[ihamoitc2005]

PGR4 in London & GT5 in London differences

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=10338263&postcount=4042

I see those pictures and I feel that for faraway buildings, PGR4 has more detail (less building LOD cuts, maybe also less pop-in which I can see in some GT5 london videos), but nearby building is better in GT5.

Also, GT5 interior looks like it has more polygons.

What is amazing for me is that GT5 can do this at 3x resolution with weather effects and much smoke.

Really I feel PD is doing devil worshipping to make the RSX GPU do this.


ps. I also look at PGR4 images and I feel like PGR4 does not have full HDR. Am I wrong? Thank you.

 

[Neb]

You are using offscreens for comparision and ontop of that they are blurry and compare PGR4 with GT5p. When GT5 is already out that should be used for comparision as it might have recieved improvments or downgrades or both. Should also be direct feed or else one cannot really judge lighting, texture clarity, AA correctly.

Saw these direct feed GT5 city (London) captures.

http://www.gamereactor.se/bild/?textid=25193&id=229829

http://www.gamereactor.se/media/98/granturismo5_229844b.jpg
http://www.gamereactor.se/media/98/granturismo5_229846b.jpg
http://www.gamereactor.se/media/98/granturismo5_229854b.jpg
http://www.gamereactor.se/media/98/granturismo5_229883b.jpg
http://www.gamereactor.se/media/98/granturismo5_229884b.jpg