The Game Technology discussion thread *Read first post before posting*
- Thread starter Shifty Geezer
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Just a reminder this is the Game Tech thread in the Console Technology forum. The only subjects for discussion are related to technology, and not game appraisal.
It's being talked about in relation to the consoles' abilities to alpha-blend many particles, and whether KZ2's example is something extraordinary or not. Where it looks 'cool' or not is immaterial for this technology thread.
Some of the effects that'll most likely make into killzone 3 as hinted by the developers are, high frequency textures on the character models, realtime reflections and dynamic radiosity. On top of those, I hope they'll include a forward renderer for some nice HDR, perhaps SSGI?
I think we'd better hold off discussing promised tech in this thread, and just stick to existing games and imlementations.
Give the acronym pipe a little rest. HDR, SSGI and the choice forward/deferred are almost completely orthogonal, neither of them requires any of the others.
Perhaps for screen-space global illumination?
Link
http://www.crytek.com/fileadmin/user_upload/inside/presentations/2009/Light_Propagation_Volumes.pdf
Link
http://www.crytek.com/fileadmin/user_upload/inside/presentations/2009/Light_Propagation_Volumes.pdf
Due to the deferred renderer in KZ2, it's theoretiucally easier to get persitant smoke. You only need draw to a smoke buffer and, making no changes at all every frame, you'll just have to blend it over the top to get persistent smoke. Code would then need to handle changes in view and turbulence etc. If they're managing KZ2 with a standard massive-overdraw alpha particle engine, that's quite some feat!
It wouldn't be a big feat, smoke is probably the easiest thing to overdraw, even many screen fulls on PS3. You don't need deferred for that, just a really small buffer. Are you sure that's how they do smoke on KZ2? For example, how do you walk through smoke that is rendered with a persistent smoke buffer that no longer has depth/perspective? You'd expect parts of the smoke to get larger faster than others as you walk through them, etc. I'm not sure how they would get it to look good when you look around, strafe, etc. Plus I thought they used a regular forward render pass for transparencies. Anyways I don't think their is any need, their persistent dynamic smoke can be done easily the regular way, it's nothing new.
Sorry folks, I was just been too lazy. SSGI being screen space Global illumination as linked by Nebula. From my previous post I was just hoping at least one of them gets the go in the next Killzone. But hey, let's look more into it whenever it gets officially announced.
. SSGI being screen space Global illumination as linked by Nebula. From my previous post I was just hoping at least one of them gets the go in the next Killzone. But hey, let's look more into it whenever it gets officially announced. ihamoitc2005
Veteran
My friend, it is for this kind of thing, that some will not notice, but is amazing for them to have, that I feel Killzone 2 is the best graphics I have seen. The dynamic physics and graphics effects are, for me, really amazing. Some people say this is easy to do but I see no other game that has this kind of technology. GG must have done a lot of research and really love their job.
Hmm...what about smoke grenade? Many games have 'em, and they're not like distant fog. They have a volume appearance and dissipate slowly.
[edit] in GeOW2, you can use smoke grenade and stick an enemy...effectively tagging them with smoke.
It's pretty cool and cleaver way of showing 'em who's boss.So maybe a developer can outline how they would do interactive, persistent smoke? What techniques would they use and what is the expected cost? Is an interactive smoke trail that last 10 seconds [x%] more difficult than a standard non-interactive smoke that dissipates in 2 seconds?
Btw, a couple years back I linked to a tech demo showing off persistent smoke trails that slowly diffused. I cannot find it now, but it was 2005/2006. Neat demo with a novel approach I believe.
Btw, a couple years back I linked to a tech demo showing off persistent smoke trails that slowly diffused. I cannot find it now, but it was 2005/2006. Neat demo with a novel approach I believe.
heres a demo of mine from 4 years ago
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=St7Ws2mZr7Q (near the end)
scuse the singing doing a dylan -> bowie + also the vid quality
the smoke does dissipate, also receives shadows/lighting
the reason smoke normally doesnt hang around
A/ you cant see things in the game (gameplay downgraded)
B/ standard method with 2d particles equals a lot of overdraw which aint good for performance
I do have an idea which Ive been meaning to try out for a while (so much to do so little time)
involving raycasting (thus decent CPU required) but the results visually will be much superior to whats done now + in fact maybe even quicker since overdraw is nonexistant
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=St7Ws2mZr7Q (near the end)
scuse the singing
doing a dylan -> bowie + also the vid qualitythe smoke does dissipate, also receives shadows/lighting
the reason smoke normally doesnt hang around
A/ you cant see things in the game (gameplay downgraded)
B/ standard method with 2d particles equals a lot of overdraw which aint good for performance
I do have an idea which Ive been meaning to try out for a while (so much to do so little time)
involving raycasting (thus decent CPU required) but the results visually will be much superior to whats done now + in fact maybe even quicker since overdraw is nonexistant
Sounds like it can benefit the Cell, using more CPU cycles instead of the limited bandwidth for overdraw.heres a demo of mine from 4 years ago
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=St7Ws2mZr7Q (near the end)
scuse the singing
the smoke does dissipate, also receives shadows/lighting
the reason smoke normally doesnt hang around
A/ you cant see things in the game (gameplay downgraded)
B/ standard method with 2d particles equals a lot of overdraw which aint good for performance
I do have an idea which Ive been meaning to try out for a while (so much to do so little time)
involving raycasting (thus decent CPU required) but the results visually will be much superior to whats done now + in fact maybe even quicker since overdraw is nonexistant
Billy Idol
Legend
got it.
Regarding the persistence of the KZ2 smoke. Here is a youtube vid (althoug very bad quality) that perfectly demonstrates the longevity of the smoke:
at the begining, when the HGS launch their rockets from the buidlings...the smoke trail last very long.
Another good example is the smoke after the bridge explodes, starting at about 51sec it lasts over 10 sec.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Xq3Rslr190
For me this is (not only cool :smile
but extraordinary as I did not observe this in other console action games (FC2, GeOW1+2, UC2, ...)upnorthsox
Veteran
Hmm...what about smoke grenade? Many games have 'em, and they're not like distant fog. They have a volume appearance and dissipate slowly.
[edit] in GeOW2, you can use smoke grenade and stick an enemy...effectively tagging them with smoke.
2 different dynamics though, one is a cloud burst and the other is an emitter.
It's both. There's a transition penalty as you say, but streaming data from the second layer is slower than from the first as well.
I believe there was a thread on here many moons ago with (estimated) figures. EDIT: here I believe.
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