You should contribute to the Insomniac "60fps is a bad choice" thread.
The Game Technology discussion thread *Read first post before posting*
- Thread starter Shifty Geezer
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Or PC.
AFAIK (some correct me please) the dual-layer problem is due to the refocusing of the laser lens AS you transition, not an overhead penalty of the second layer itself. Thus keeping the transitions to a minimum would reduce the penalty.
I remember reading (in some sony doc, I'll have to look it up) that SSAO is another thing that could be moved onto the spus. For the GPU alone it could take over 10ms but only 6ms on two spus. I'm guessing that's what U2 probably does if there are such benifits.
EDIT: Here's the doc http://www.scribd.com/doc/16104972/Deferred-Lighting-and-PostProcessing-on-PS3
brain_stew
Regular
Interesting, that's a pretty smart use of the SPUs if that is indeed what Uncharted does, and could be a way for it to be implemented into the PS3 version of UE3 as I'm sure UE3 isn't maxing out the SPUs yet. Have any of the Naughty Dog guys talked about their SSAO implementation yet, as it seems to be the highest quality implementation in a console game.
6ms on two SPUs seems pretty damn fast, and I'm sure there's still plenty of titles that have at least two SPUs idle a lot of the time, it seems like a nice cheap use of the SPUs to deliver a really nice IQ boost. After getting use to forcing Nvidia's SSAO option on a bunch of older games its really surprising what a transforimg effect it can have on some titles. The COD games in particular look a great deal better.
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ihamoitc2005
Veteran
Wow
That document says even 1 SPU is faster for some pixel operations than the GPU.
Can this be true or is this marketing? This seems like a technical paper but the statements are amazing.
I wonder how Killzone 2 does the smoke effects. It is beautiful to see.
That document says even 1 SPU is faster for some pixel operations than the GPU.
Can this be true or is this marketing? This seems like a technical paper but the statements are amazing.
I wonder how Killzone 2 does the smoke effects. It is beautiful to see.
It depends on what theyre doing
GPUs are fast dumb machines
CPUs are slower intelligent machines
cell is somewhere in the middle
yes for certain grafix things cell can run rings around what a GPU (though the latest + future GPUs from ATI/nvidia are catching up)
6msec though is a long time, think of it as 60fps == 16.7 msec per frame ( thus youre approaching half your available time!)
30fps == 33.3msec
Yeah, probably something they'd wanna ditch if going for 60fps (are there any AO 60fps games?).
With regards to Uncharted 2, I'm dying to get some tech presentations from them.
Judging from playing the game - complete guesses to follow - it seems Uncharted 2 is still using some sort of GI solution as they did in the first game. It looks like dynamic lighting outdoors and some light sources but lightmapped (or similiar) to get the radiosity effect elsewhere. It's noticable in several places like
when drake first reaches the temple with elena and camera man. Facing the temple from the right (on drakes right) go to the tree on the right then stare at the temple wall to the left of the tree (actually the staircase). The bright dynamic sunlight is casting down and where it doesn't hit it reflects the color on the wall. At the opposite end (on the left side of the temple) there's another tree and the staircase wall on the right is almost completely dark from being in shadow.
I presume those lighting effets are prebaked, seeing as daylight isn't dynamic. If someone stands in the way of the reflected light, does it disappear from the building?
Hmm... the sun does seem to be a dynamic lightsource but yes it's mostly limited to strict out door spot. And yes, the radiosity (the light that appears to be reflecting anyway) is baked. Stand in front of it and it's still appears the same.
Sounds like you don't play enough games
Lots of games do it, for example check the spider lair on Brutal Legend, it has many screenfulls of constant mist. Mist/smoke are low detail so they are perfect candidates for reduced size buffers.MazingerDUDE
Regular
Sounds like you don't play enough games
I'm not talking about some scripted stationary effects, but more dynamic ones caused by something like gun fire or grenades.
MazingerDUDE
Regular
People might not think about looking after such effects when playing those games.
As for the smoke effects in KZ2, you don't really have to look for it as it will naturally get in the way while you're playing. And it's something you don't see often in other games, so it gets noticed. You should probably play the game before talk about its specifics
MazingerDUDE
Regular
Please let's not turn this into some GAF style *something*.
EDIT: Well you linked to a video and I've seen others and played myself a bit. Consistency is not same across all smoke effects.
I sure hope not
Maybe that video was not the best example, here's another one.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7VRtXWSZNTM
The smoke effect IS rather consistant in KZ2. There's also muzzle smoke that'll blind you if you get too excited with larger guns. I've got platinum trophy in KZ2 with 150+ and counting hours on MP. I don't need a reference from 'others' to tell you this
I play lots of shooters in general, but I don't recall having similar experience in other games, That's it. Maybe bad memory, I'd be glad if you could correct me :smile:
Ok, then Ghostbusters. It's one of the more dynamic heavy overdraw games out there.
MazingerDUDE
Regular
I'm not sure why you'd mention Ghostbusters, I'm not talking about alpha in general, but just that specific smoke effect in KZ2 & other games as it was referred opposite in Alstrong's post
I'm not sure why you'd mention Ghostbusters, I'm not talking about alpha in general, but just that specific smoke effect in KZ2 & other games as it was referred opposite in Alstrong's post
Because it has lots of smoke in the later levels when it's all 5 Ghost Busters burning everything in sight trying to trap multiple ghosts, and having their packs also smoke from overheating. Unless you mean smoke only in fps games? In that case, Far Cry 2, you can burn the landscapes causing lots of dynamic smoke and fire that lingers around.
I sure hope not
Maybe that video was not the best example, here's another one.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7VRtXWSZNTM
The smoke effect IS rather consistant in KZ2. There's also muzzle smoke that'll blind you if you get too excited with larger guns. I've got platinum trophy in KZ2 with 150+ and counting hours on MP. I don't need a reference from 'others' to tell you this
I play lots of shooters in general, but I don't recall having similar experience in other games, That's it. Maybe bad memory, I'd be glad if you could correct me :smile:
Ooo... Red Faction is one of those games, where if you fire a heavy weapon -- especially a stationary or vehicle mounted gun for long bursts, the smoke will start obscuring your view of the target. I thought it was neat for a video game, but funny enough, in current military munitions, most use smokeless powder
Killzone2's smoke effect definitely lingered longer than most console games if not all. Everything from grenade explosion, gas canister, exploding barrels, rockets, tank rounds etc all have that persistent smoke. They're present through out the levels and more often than not, fill up your view. I'm pretty sure some games do plenty of smokes but none to a degree as extensive as killzone2's. The new Battlefield bad company 2 seems to come close in terms of on screen smokes but they're not physically affected by wind.
I haven't played GB so don't know. However the point here isn't how many particle effects but how long they linger, which may not be a case of masses of overdraw. KZ2's smoke is very persistent, contrasted with most games where smoke trails appear only for the life of the animated smoke particles that make it up, and then the air is clean and fresh. I don't have a count of the number of games that have persistent smoke, but it is something I was aware of for the first time in KZ2, such that before then I'd never known smoke fill up a level. And after that, I looked out for it out of curiosuity in other titles like Gears2 where you see smoke is teh old-skool, very clean variety.
Due to the deferred renderer in KZ2, it's theoretiucally easier to get persitant smoke. You only need draw to a smoke buffer and, making no changes at all every frame, you'll just have to blend it over the top to get persistent smoke. Code would then need to handle changes in view and turbulence etc. If they're managing KZ2 with a standard massive-overdraw alpha particle engine, that's quite some feat!
Edit : I went looking for GB vids. Found this one showing smoke from packs and vapourised ghosts. The particles look to dissipate as quickly as usual. Certainly the room doesn't fill with fog.
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