Steve Ballmer talks XBOX 2

Teasy said:
but sales for it on PS2 before the GC exclusivity announcement were similar to its sales of Remake and 0 on GC.
If by "similar" you mean... Wait, I've a feeling of déjà vu... :p
Anyway, RE:CVX sold almost twice as much as RE0 (the best selling RE on GC). And it as a 1 year old DC port (+ 3 new cutscenes, and a new hair cut for one of the characters).

I agree that the Capcom milking would have hit the franchise popularity sooner or later, on PS2 or not. But the GC-only move accelerated the things.
 
I'm really interested to hear what costs XNA is magically going to decrease if the source of increasing costs is content creation... :oops:

It would be interesting if some of the game developers/artists on this board could comment on how things are done internally - i.e. how resources are split beween developers and artists and where the bulk of money is going.

Not that I am totally unaware of the answer myself, but maybe it would give some people here a new sense of reality. When looking at really expensive games for example (the Getaway, Shenmue, Gran Turismo 4), it's really quite easy to see where the main costs went into: content creation, game assets. And then we have really small development teams like Snowblind that gave us the wonderful Bauldurs Gate: Dark Alliance that was quite a small team on their own. If costs are really due to technical complexity rising significantly - and PS2 vs. Xbox should be one difference in that aspect already - how does Snowblind and others fit in? And how would XNA solve the costs that are increasing in games today if those costs aren't really code related, but more with content, modelling etc?
 
Sega's games have bombed on every console.

Of course they haven't..

All formats U.S Sega top 10 chart as of November last year:

1 SONIC ADVENTURE 2 BATTLE---- 983,915 GCN
2 NFL 2K3---- 818,155 PS2
3 SONIC MEGA COLLECTION---- 679,908 GCN
4 VIRTUA FIGHTER 4---- 622,406 PS2
5 SUPER MONKEY BALL---- 554,988 GCN
6 NBA 2K2---- 466,371 PS2
7 SONIC HEROES---- 447,337 GCN
8 SUPER MONKEY BALL 2---- 431,973 GCN
9 SONIC ADVENTURE DX---- 418,636 GCN
10 NBA 2K3---- 404,706 PS2

What big franchises are you talking about.

Panzer Dragoon
Sega GT 2002
Jet Set Radio
Sega GT Online
Shenmue
House of the Dead

They may not all be really big titles, but they're all well known ones. Most of them got very good reviews as well and were not DC ports either.
 
Cause re cv was a much better game than re 0 .... of course that coulnd't factor in huh

I highly doubt re remake , re2 and re 3 and re 0 would have sold so much better . They were pretty substandard remakes or new games with the exception of re remake . Which likely wouldn't find a a huge market as its a remake of last gen game .
 
jvd said:
Cause re cv was a much better game than re 0 .... of course that coulnd't factor in huh
For you, maybe, I won't question that. And, I actually agree with you, RE:CV was better than RE0. But the average rating over game ranking seems to indicate that most reviewers prefered Zero over CVX. So, I don't think that has anything to do with its sales.

jvd said:
They were pretty substandard remakes or new games with the exception of re remake . Which likely wouldn't find a a huge market as its a remake of last gen game .
The saddest thing is that in Japan the, monstrously superior to RE0, RE4 seems to sale only half as good as RE0.
RE0 which didn't got stellar results to boot (~400k).

So, I think that we can safely assume that quality has nothing to do with the sales that the serie has lately.
 
Phil said:
If costs are really due to technical complexity rising significantly - and PS2 vs. Xbox should be one difference in that aspect already - how does Snowblind and others fit in? And how would XNA solve the costs that are increasing in games today if those costs aren't really code related, but more with content, modelling etc?
Good point/question. I don't think XNA will fix or solve any issues like that. It may alleviate them for some people, but it's no panacea.

The majority of what XNA means to 3rd party developers will be a series of tools in conjunction with DirectX. At least, that's my guess. MS's grand idea of unifying every platform under XNA is about as likely to happen this gen as IBM's grand idea of massively distributed computing for PS3 games.
 
Anyway, RE:CVX sold almost twice as much as RE0 (the best selling RE on GC).

Last time I saw numbers for RECVX on PS2 in mid 2004 it had sold 850,000 in the U.S. Late last year RE0 sales were at 600,000. Pretty similar sales AFAICS. Especially considering the difference in the time both games have been available.
 
Yes, it's actually dependent of the size of the company and the nature of the project, that said, your developers/ game designers/ artists ratio might be one of the strangest I have ever seen (If everybody works on the same game).

Doesn't seem strange to me at all. In fact I would venture to guess that in an entire established company programmers would routinely out number artists. Game/Level designers mix this up a bit as they often have blurred skill sets (scripting etc).

The other thing to consider is that programmers have much higher average wages.

Can tell you from experience that ease of development (and not just for programmers) makes a huge difference. Game developers love to make great games first and foremost and the more time you can spend on making games and not technology the better.

Most people in the industry I speak to would agree that if it weren't for PS2's market share they'd put it on a lower priority for development.
 
My post disapeared. Oh well.

Teasy, Im sure RE4 will sell well but its still too little too late. Both Sega and Capcom have done a poor job of handling their properties. More so Sega. But RE4 should have came out 3 years ago, then they should have made the remakes. Your right, Panzer Dragoon and Otogi didnt get the sales they deserve and maybe Sega should actually reconsider what their doing and with who. Most xbox owners don't want to play rail shooters and dreamcast ports. FPS and voilence, free roaming, and military sims seem to be what the older demographic go for these days. Jet Set Radio was great but didnt get the chance. Your right alot of xbox owners arent giving some deserving games the love.

But I still think RE4 would be be in capcoms best interest as a cross platform launch. Sega dumping MS is another valid argument.

Way off topic though... Steve Balmer is a nut job though. but so is Ken Kenturagi (spel) but neither holds a candle to that Tecmo guy. Ninja Gaiden was great game but DOA has never done anything for me. Always felt more like a tech demo so he shouldn't rip on Tekken like he does.
 
Teasy said:
Last time I saw numbers for RECVX on PS2 in mid 2004 it had sold 850,000 in the U.S. Late last year RE0 sales were at 600,000. Pretty similar sales AFAICS.
RE0 sold around 420K in the US.
 
• Develpers have been squaking for the longest time about development costs. Seeing all the little guys either go out of business are get gobbled up by the big guys is kind of a testament to this. It costs more and more to program and to develop art assets on the new consoles.

• XNA is designed to allow easy cross platforming between the PC and Xenon.

• XNA is not only aimed at cross platforming between the PC and Xenon, but is also aimed to streamline the development process buy further integrating middleware.

• Software is MS forté.

• MS, from the leaked diagrams and patents, has designed a system similar to concept behind the GCN. Simple (compratively), clean, powerful. You can add another word: Flexible. They have stuck with fairly familiar formats that are flexible. The GPU will used unified shaders which should allow some flexibility in game design, and it looks like the vector units on the CPUs can also take some of the geometry tasks if needed.

• DX. MS has a slew of developers knowledgable in DX9. MS is leveraging this advantage and the technology developed around this API. This helps MS and developers a lot.

• MS has been very vocal about their goals to help alleviate some of the stress and ballooning budgets associated with next gen game development. And not only talk, but action.

All of this is focused in reality. As for Balmer--yeah, he is excited about his product. But his major points, the ones I highlighted and focused on, are totally valid. If you want to do some finger pointing go look at John Peddie's article on CELL and note the comments on CELL and EE.

Some of you guys and gals just cannot accept the fact that the competitors to your favorite console(s) do some things right and even do things better than their competition at times.

Btw, I thought it would be fun to go through my post and see where I am "regurgitating hype" as so accused.

By golly MS might not be the idiots most make them out to be.
Very factual. Just read the forum here or in other non-Xbox forums. People love to slam them no matter what they do.
Out of the big three MS is the only one publically declairing the need to help developers.
Fact, MS has been very active for over a year evangelizing the need for reducing costs and decreasing production times in next gen games. XNA was anounced at last years GDC I believe.
I do not know how many times I have read about the rising costs of development and the money/gamble it will be to develop a next gen game. Serious issues that need serious solutions.
Fact, and a very serious issue. When you are looking at game development budgets going higher and higher--that is a problem for all but the biggest publishers. The EAs of the world can protect themselves by buying their own middleware (e.g. Renderman), but what about the small guys who make good games but are not able to churn out licensed game after licensed game?
And MS is not just blowing smoke, they are doing something about it: XNA.
Fact. MS has not just said, "We are doing our best to lower production costs for game development". Nintendo has said they understand the spiraling costs, but have made no statements on how they expect to handle this. Building effecient HW is just one part of the equation--software development tools are even more important. MS has put their money where their mouth is and have been very active in preaching their efforts (not just their intentions) to help developers. They are not just talking about doing something, they are doing something.
Now, whether that will be enough to gain marketshare, I do not know.
And to balance out my positivism about Ballmer's statements I get to the reality of the issue: Will this allow them to gain marketshare? I do not know. I am not just buying his hype, I am looking at where it could potentially be a boom for MS. But without knowing how much they have invested into XNA and how good it is at this stage I am not going to declair MS's XNA as the sole solution to the issue. I would call this objective, not regurgitating hype with no relation to reality in any way. :rolleyes:
And obviously Sony and Nintendo are not sitting around doing nothing, but I do wonder how developer friendliness plays into the console designs.
Another objective statement to balance out Ballmer's enthusiasm. How did that get in here? But lets explore this: Are Sony and Nintendo doing more than MS on the software side to reduce costs and development time? Has Sony created a console that is more accessible and therefore more affordable to develop on than MS?
I think we would all agree that losing all the smaller developers and having them assimilated by no-risk publishers who want to push tried and true sequals is no fun. Especially when they push out games that given 3-6 more months could be A titles, but end up being C titles with a lot of bugs and small tweaks and features that would have made the product significantly better.
Totally and completely grounded in reality. If you cannot see this I wont be able to change your mind.

So, your turn. I defended every statement you quoted as having "absolutely no relation to reality in any way. You are simply regurgitating hype." Please show that my post (note: You did not say statements, you said post) is what you claim.

And I want to go back to what Ballmer said that I liked: He not only understands, but is focusing on the most important aspect of consoles: The games, not the technology. The technology is there to bring the best gaming experience to the table. The best HW specs does not guarantee the best games. That is a fact. Technology is just one element that makes a game good. The fact his focus is on (1) "great environment, software environment for people to write games, games that connect to one another, games that are social, games that are hard-core. We've got to make sure we let people write great games" is great in my book. MS has graduated from "Lets have the best specs" to "Lets make this as easy as possible so they can write great games" is step in the right direction. As a Nintendo fan I can say I like hearing this a lot better than "Gamers do not care about complex games... gamers do not want better graphics, sound, or in depth games with long stories" (Ok, I am over stating this case, but it is not to far from what Nintendo's pres has said). And (2) MS making great games. Obviously MS cannot expect 3rd parties to make all their hit titles for them. They need to push the HW and really show off what their console can do. And they need to share this knowledge. A certain other company I am a fan of seems to historically be pretty tight lipped about sharing their tech at times.

I really see a graduation in the thought process from MS. And it is not just the statements they have made, but what I am reading about XNA and also the philosophy that the Xenon specs convey. The funny thing is I did not defend everything Ballmer said--I liked specific parts of what he said which I liked.

Feel free to disagree Tuttle, but at least provide some facts when accusing someone of hype. Since my post has no relation to reality, time to prove it.
 
This thread is being locked while there is some pruning done to it from all the flaming going on. Tuttle, Inane Dork, and chap, you're all being warned.
 
jvd said:
What sony is doing ? who knows .

I've hinted many times what Sony is doing. Something "cool". My understanding is that they realize the PS2 was a pain in the butt to code for in the early portion of its lifespan. Which is why Rubin and co. have been working on some very interesting tools for the PS3.

DeanoC said:
Wrong! where do people get this idea from? programming costs account for 30-70% of the development budget (dependent on company). Currently we are something like 13 programmers, 3 designers and 9 artists...

Well of course it also depends on the type of title. An MMO-RPG for instance is generally going to be much more content heavy and thus require more content creators. That said, programmers can be paid 2x what a designer is paid.

Man, 13 programmers! I've worked on more than a few MMO titles and I could only WISH to have had 13 programmers!!!
 
Vysez said:
The saddest thing is that in Japan the, monstrously superior to RE0, RE4 seems to sale only half as good as RE0.
RE0 which didn't got stellar results to boot (~400k).

So, I think that we can safely assume that quality has nothing to do with the sales that the serie has lately.

I thought there were only 200.000 units shipped, this might explain sales.

Not 100% sure, I'll look it up when I finish work here.
 
Acert93 said:
And obviously Sony and Nintendo are not sitting around doing nothing, but I do wonder how developer friendliness plays into the console designs.
Another objective statement to balance out Ballmer's enthusiasm. How did that get in here? But lets explore this: Are Sony and Nintendo doing more than MS on the software side to reduce costs and development time? Has Sony created a console that is more accessible and therefore more affordable to develop on than MS?
Accessibility is facilitated through software and APIs. eg. If Sony have got OpenGL 2.0 implemented as is rumoured, which makes sense as that'll be a portable graphics protocol for other Cell systems, then writing graphics (for example) will be as easy as DirectX (for those versed in OGL of course!). Sony have also headed a portable 3D format with backing of the major 3D content creation tools for portability between offline and realtime rendering (Collada). Certainly Sony aren't doing nothing at all in this sector. All in all I think Sony and Nintendo are as aware of the software development side of things as MS.

I think the main point is that the software has become MS's main trumpet, with Sony backing awesome power claims and Nintendo backing awesome playability promises. As I understand it though, XNA is nothing more than a rebranding of MS's existing software tools to give them a marketting tool? Just as they convinced people without PCs to buy Win95 to improve their office productivity, maybe they can convince the public that a game without the XNA logo isn't going to be optimised? I think that's more why they're pressing XNA - It's nothing new to developers but is new to the public. I don't know much about XNA though and maybe MS have/are introduced/introducing new tools specific to next-gen?



@ WC081
WC081 said:
So XNA is for Xbox/Xenon exclusives or Xbox/Xenon/PC games. Third-parties are looking to leverage across at least 2 consoles?

Is MS going to give XNA away? Guessing no.

XNA is for cross-platform development, including palm computers and mobile phones (according to MS anyway). MS suggested Sony and Nintendo adopt XNA for their systems. Remember that MS originally wanted their OS on PS2 and GC. They are a software company. If they can get their software onto any system they'll do it as it's the most profitable business in the world. This XB hardware thing is just a sideline to promote their software!
 
DeanoC said:
london-boy said:
See, the thing is that the cost of programming a game is nothing compared to the money spent for content creation. Well, not nothing, but very small. And content creation will cost the same from platform to platform. No matter how easy a platform is to develop for, game development cost will go up.

Wrong! where do people get this idea from? programming costs account for 30-70% of the development budget (dependent on company). Currently we are something like 13 programmers, 3 designers and 9 artists...

Obviously it depends on the game, and i have surely exhaggerated a little bit in my previous post, but it's obvious that for a game like GT4 the cost of programming is very small compared to the cost of creating all the stuff that's in the game.
And i'm using GT4 because i expect content creation to be much more relevant in the next generation of games. Surely we'll also have smaller games which won't need as much money as GT4 to create the contents.
 
Evil_Cloud said:
I thought there were only 200.000 units shipped, this might explain sales.
Yep, ~185k were shipped the first week. But, because there's a but, the shippement quantities are decided by the stores.
If x stores want y SKUs, you do the math and then obtain the # of shipped copies. In other words, if "only" 185k SKUs were on shelves for the launch is not due to Capcom stupidity but only because retailers didn't believe in the sale of the game. (And, they were right, it sold ~140k the first week, and only ~30k the second week)
 
Vysez said:
Evil_Cloud said:
I thought there were only 200.000 units shipped, this might explain sales.
Yep, ~185k were shipped the first week. But, because there's a but, the shippement quantities are decided by the stores.
If x stores want y SKUs, you do the math and then obtain the # of shipped copies. In other words, if "only" 185k SKUs were on shelves for the launch is not due to Capcom stupidity but only because retailers didn't believe in the sale of the game. (And, they were right, it sold ~140k the first week, and only ~30k the second week)

Well, that makes about +175.000 units, less than 10.000 units left. Time for a restock. ;)
 
RE0 sold around 420K in the US.

According to which sales data? Remake sold 460,000 and as you said earlier RE0 sold more then Remake.

Yep, ~185k were shipped the first week. But, because there's a but, the shippement quantities are decided by the stores.

Good point, although its not always the case. Could be in this case though, but if so they miscalculated demand.

175,000 sold out of 185,000 available is a sell out. So you can't really say that they were right about the stock needed because it sold 145,000 in the first week and only 30,000 in the second week. Since it couldn't have sold more then 30,000 in the second week anyway.
 
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