Sony Halo, KILLzone hype thread!

Vince: I'm not an expert on the actual mathematics of the stuff, but I'll give it a try and post a lot of blahblah...

So, the Catmull-Clark algorythm works on any arbitrary polygon mesh. It basically turns every polygon into a small quadratic B-patch surface. The good thing is that it can work on any kinds of meshes, with any possible kinds of polygons (from3-sided to n-sided). This gives a lot more flexibility than a NURBS surface which requires a rectangular grid.
For every face, it does the following:
- insert a new vertex to the midpoint of all edges
- insert a new vertex into the center of the face
- connect new vertices
It also moves/averages the vertices at each step, and thus the resulting surface will be smoothed as well.

So, even after the first level of subdivision, the model is made of only quadrangular surfaces. A triangle is turned into 3 quads, a pentagon is turned into 5 quads.
Theoretically, subdivision is repeated to infinity, and it porduces a so-called limit surface or derived surface that is infinitely smooth. PRMan subdivides the mesh into micropolygons, other renderers have different methods.

The Doo-Sabin subdivision algorythm produces considerably different results; the subdivided surface may have 3 to n-sided polygons instead of quads only. So conversion to B-patches is not possible, and the derived surface won't be infinitely smooth.

I used to have some nice university links on the subject, but lost them in a HD crash :(
 
Laa-Yosh, how does Lightwave's MetaNURBS work? Basically, you can design any kind of object and with a touch of the buttons see a preview of that same object, converted to nurbs. Then you can adjust those nurbs, and switch back to polygons again, which will adjust accordingly.

I know nurbs are used in some games today. Moto GP2 uses them for curved parts of their motorcycles, SSX uses them for the track.
 
Laa-Yosh, how does Lightwave's MetaNURBS work? Basically, you can design any kind of object and with a touch of the buttons see a preview of that same object, converted to nurbs.
LW's MetaNurbs refers to their proprietary subdivision algorhytm, not actual Nurbs or any other kind of HOS. Afaik it's very similar in approach to Catmull-Clark.
 
Lightwave 6 (I think it was 6) added extra vertex data - weights, to subdivision surfaces which are used for fine control of subdivision process.

The curves you see are visual interface assists of the modeller tool, to help you manipulate models (at least from what I remember, granted I didn't do much work modelling stuff). Of course they could leave you with manually editing vertex weight numbers, but I think you'll agree that'd be a bit sadistic. ;)
 
Marc, AFAIK MotoGP uses NURBS for the tracks, polys for the riders. Might have that mixed up though.. NURBS lend themselves more to tracks than vehicles, by their nature. Also, its not easy to mix polys and NURBS on a model (if its even possible in real time).
 
There's a Gamasutra article, which goes into details on what MotoGP uses (and the custom tools they wrote for the artists). Apparently the tracks are combinations of bezier patches and strips, and the bikes are bezier patches, strips, and plain polys.
 
One thing about MGP that I wasn't aware of earlier:

A minor but irritating difficulty on MotoGP was that while SuperTed always displays patches at a constant number of subdivisions, the game itself used an offline tesselator to do aggressive optimisations based on the curvature of each patch. In some cases this caused texture mapping errors which were laborious to fix as the problem could not be seen in the art tool due to do the difference in algorithms. The obvious solution would be to make SuperTed use the same tesselator as the game itself, but how to do this without breaking generality across multiple projects that may be using different techniques?

So it looks like the actual game data is finally all polygons as it get tesselated in an offline utility. Nurbs and other HOS are being used only during the process of modelling, not during the actual game.
 
marconelly! said:
So it looks like the actual game data is finally all polygons as it get tesselated in an offline utility. Nurbs and other HOS are being used only during the process of modelling, not during the actual game.
The PS2 version uses realtime tessellation.
 
Thowllly said:
marconelly! said:
So it looks like the actual game data is finally all polygons as it get tesselated in an offline utility. Nurbs and other HOS are being used only during the process of modelling, not during the actual game.
The PS2 version uses realtime tessellation.

There is no PS2 version of MotoGP (we're talking about the Climax/THQ MGP, not the Namco one [shouldn't there be a huge lawsuit over this?])
 
zurich said:
There is no PS2 version of MotoGP (we're talking about the Climax/THQ MGP, not the Namco one [shouldn't there be a huge lawsuit over this?])
Uh, ok, I appear to have gotten things confused... :oops:
 
RT nurbs are pretty unpractical for anything other than road,or landscape.
It can also be very sub-optimal (as polygon tesselation cannot be controled along patch directions).

Some shapes can only be achieved only trough triming (sort of "negative patch on surface):

68-9.gif


Patch continuity and parameterisation between surfaces is also rather tricky and long to model with (nurbs artists are not comon thing) .Not even speaking of stiching patches together.

figure10.jpg


Also ,implicit UV is not always your friend (for RT).

Catmul/Clark is pretty good ,but still not cheap.
 
Fafalada said:
Laa-Yosh, how does Lightwave's MetaNURBS work? Basically, you can design any kind of object and with a touch of the buttons see a preview of that same object, converted to nurbs.
LW's MetaNurbs refers to their proprietary subdivision algorhytm, not actual Nurbs or any other kind of HOS. Afaik it's very similar in approach to Catmull-Clark.

Screwing around with MetaNURBS myself, triangle based ones at least, they act a hell of a lot like N-patches. Quite possibly they are mathmatically very different, but regardless, making a model that works properly with MetaNURBS should also work fine with N-patches. You will get cracks all over the place when using MetaNURBS in exactly the same places you'll get cracks with N-patches.
 
Thowllly said:
Uh, ok, I appear to have gotten things confused...
Well, they didn't make MotoGP for PS2, but they do talk about their PS2 work in that article, including the mention of realtime tesselation on VUs. ;)

Colourless said:
Screwing around with MetaNURBS myself, triangle based ones at least, they act a hell of a lot like N-patches. Quite possibly they are mathmatically very different, but regardless, making a model that works properly with MetaNURBS should also work fine with N-patches. You will get cracks all over the place when using MetaNURBS in exactly the same places you'll get cracks with N-patches.
Well, NPatches are simply Bezier patches with realtime generated control points - which 'technically' makes them a form of HOS.
True enough though, Bezier patches have the neat property that you can easily evaluate them as a subdivision surface also (though personally I prefer iterative parametric evaluation), so the two might have something in common.
Sadly the math for MetaNurbs isn't publicly available (to my knowledge at least), so I wouldn't really know :p
 
There is no PS2 version of MotoGP (we're talking about the Climax/THQ MGP, not the Namco one [shouldn't there be a huge lawsuit over this?])
Hehe, true...

Anyways, I think SSX / SSX Tricky does realtime tesselation of it's nurbs modeled terrain, and I'm 100% sure MGS2 does (used for sea waves and such)
 
marconelly! said:
There is no PS2 version of MotoGP (we're talking about the Climax/THQ MGP, not the Namco one [shouldn't there be a huge lawsuit over this?])
Hehe, true...

Anyways, I think SSX / SSX Tricky does realtime tesselation of it's nurbs modeled terrain, and I'm 100% sure MGS2 does (used for sea waves and such)

WRC too
 
Back
Top